It's genital mutilation. There's no medical reason [1]. Yes, having a foreskin means you need to clean it regularly (or your caregiver if you're a baby). And then there are disgusting things like this [2]: > In a practice that takes place during a ceremony known as the bris, a circumcision practitioner, or mohel, removes the foreskin from the baby's penis, and with his mouth sucks the blood from the incision to clean…
Look up phimosis. At two minute Google search could have found this. It's a valid medical reason for the operation. Not to mention the above mentioned. Not only do your facts not hold up to a brief Google, but the reputation of the people suggesting this could have made you think twice. Twice about the possible motivations. And that could have given you again doubts. And calling it mutilation implies those who have a…
Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys
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Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys
#62Circumcision, for (orthodox) Jews, is one of the most fundamental conditions for identification and belonging to that group. Leaving a Jewish male baby uncircumcised would most likely lead to feelings of alienation and isolation later on in life – feelings which could have significant psychological impact and could largely negate the benefits one gains from strong communal structures.
Regardless of the process's inherent morality, a blanket ban may cause more harm than good. Cultures have dependency trees, like a Jenga tower: remove one block, even one that, in isolation, is a negative, and you risk destabilizing the entire structure and causing significantly more net harm than that single negative you erased.
More generally, I'd propose a corollary to Chesterson's fence [1]: Before you (in righteous external-observer outrage) destroy an element of a culture, make sure you understand what role that element plays, and what harm you may cause with such heavy handed destruction.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton#Chesterton.27...
Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys
#63It's genital mutilation. There's no medical reason [1]. Yes, having a foreskin means you need to clean it regularly (or your caregiver if you're a baby). And then there are disgusting things like this [2]: > In a practice that takes place during a ceremony known as the bris, a circumcision practitioner, or mohel, removes the foreskin from the baby's penis, and with his mouth sucks the blood from the incision to clean…
This is actually not true. It's normal for the foreskin to remain attached in young children. This is entirely normal and acts as a powerful disease protection mechanism. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0079408/
Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys
#64It's genital mutilation. There's no medical reason [1]. Yes, having a foreskin means you need to clean it regularly (or your caregiver if you're a baby). And then there are disgusting things like this [2]: > In a practice that takes place during a ceremony known as the bris, a circumcision practitioner, or mohel, removes the foreskin from the baby's penis, and with his mouth sucks the blood from the incision to clean…
I suggest you do a little more research on what genital mutilation really means in the 3rd world, circumcision is no worse than some injections by comparison.
There is a very valid medical reason for this - it prevents sexually transmitted diseases [1] - So much so that it is promoted for adult males by health organizations. n the other hand, the foreskin serves absolutely no medical purpose.
Most reputable mohels (specially trained people who conduct the circumcision) will use a tube to suck the blood to prevent any chance of infection.
Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys
#65It's genital mutilation. There's no medical reason [1]. Yes, having a foreskin means you need to clean it regularly (or your caregiver if you're a baby). And then there are disgusting things like this [2]: > In a practice that takes place during a ceremony known as the bris, a circumcision practitioner, or mohel, removes the foreskin from the baby's penis, and with his mouth sucks the blood from the incision to clean…
Of course, some reasonable people think that genital mutilation is OK, because being reasonable does not guarantee moral clarity. This is why many reasonable people supported slavery and other abhorrent things. I can't believe anyone would allow someone to knife off part of their child's genitals (even with anesthesia). Maybe if the procedure involved branding the Playboy logo into the genitalia (with anesthesia) it…
Many Muslims do it as well. That is probably hundreds of millions of people right there.
Plus we have hundreds of years over which to know if such a procedure had adverse effects and the incidence rates.
I agree with you that if these people were all atheists then they should probably refrain from physically altering their children. But since they believe that this has huge ramifications for their child's life as a Jew, and if you read the Bible you can definitely see why, telling them that they must stop this practice is equivalent to an attack on their whole religion. And specifically the Jewish religion, given that it's not obligatory for Cheistians and many Muslims do not regard it as obligatory.
I should also point out that Jewish men on average seem to have successful upbringings and lower incidence of drug abuse, failed marriage etc. than tons of other groups. And Jews have been around for millennia. So arguments that something is more moral or less moral are subjective. There are families of different types and traditions and beliefs. The health outcomes of this particular practice have been empirically shown not to be worse on average than the opposite.
In today's world, we are constantly figuring out what leads to more or less moral outcomes long term for society. 100 years ago, women couldn't wear bikinis to the beach, now we have lots of freedoms. We now have no-fauly divorce. Today, sexuality is everywhere, the family structure has deteriorated compared to before, divorces are up, many people have sex and don't stick around to raise the child, McDonalds is on every corner, obesity and depression is up etc. Is this better? Well, who knows, but we know that some systems have been stable and successful for millennia. Calling them immoral (from an atheist point or view) also carries the burden of showing our system to be more successful and to have better outcomes.
Finally, in our system, liberal progressives are totally fine with far greater mutilation as long as a child feels that they are of the opposite gender. Why doesn't the same argument apply to make them wait until they are 18 or 21? Studies show that most children who feel like the opposite gender change their mind after several years regarding transitioning physically. So why right away submit them to permanently changing into a transsexual? Yet the same progressives who argue against circumcision would argue for gender reassignment surgery.
Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys
#66This is one of those topics where people have extremely strong opinions, yet the vast majority of people affected by this practice (circumcised males) have no opinion or even a favorable opinion of their circumcision.
The only people whose opinions would hold any weight in this matter would be males who were circumcised by medical necessity as adults. In other words, people who have actual memories with which to form a basis for comparison, without psychological pressure to form an irrationally favorable or unfavorable opinion.
Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys
#67I don't understand how parents are allowed to make major, irreversible, cosmetic medical decisions for children on their behalf. I'm not against circumcision, but it should be the choice of someone who is able to consent.
Well, parents are allowed to mark their children with musical taste, their political views, their habits, their values. These are also irreversible. Parents are allowed to feed their children the way they want, to take their children to spots where they might get a disease, to pass on their own diseases to their children. Parents are allowed even to pass on their genes, which may contain horrible psychological tenden…
Musical tast, political views, habits and values are irreversible? Really?
Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys
#68This is one of those topics where people have extremely strong opinions, yet the vast majority of people affected by this practice (circumcised males) have no opinion or even a favorable opinion of their circumcision.
Do you have any any evidence to back that claim up?
Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys
#69I may not be Jewish (though I am Christian and circumcised), and I realize my American values do not directly apply in Norway, but freedom of religion is a basic human right.
Devout religious followers would have no choice but to "obey God rather than men", so laws like this proposed ban are simply a veiled authorization of persecution.
Re: Norway's Progress Party calls for ban on circumcision for boys
#70We tried this in San Francisco and it gets dragged into some crazy anti-religious fight. It's about the rights of the baby, not about some religion's outdated beliefs. Children should be free of mutilation, regardless of their religion.
Exactly. And last time I checked Jewish people have a place to live that is violently protective of their way of life, namely Israel.
In the US there is also a practice that all? hospitals offer this practice as just an additional procedure after birth. This should be stopped, and that is non-religious, it's almost worse because it's nearly thoughtless.