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French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

bbc.com

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Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#81

Post by dirtyaura »

sparkling wrote: post #64
mtgx wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly "needs to change"? When I see people complain about the EU it's usually about "the EU taking their sovereignty and imposing stuff on them". So if "things are going to change" that means the EU would have to become less like the U.S. (a federal entity), and more like an aggregate of wildly different cultures and regulations (so more like the pre-EU Europe). Is that really a good thing? And do things "need…

What the EU is trying to do has been done in the past and it has failed. The EU as it is right now is becoming the next Sovient Union. A undemocratic, centralised, bureaucratic superstate that strips the people from their sovereignty, independence, cultural and ethnic traditions. Further, you seem to assume that without the EU, trade between countries would somehow radically decrease, i don't see that happening. The…

I think EU is pretty logical extension if you have both EEA (free trade) and Schengen (free movement of people). If USA was just a collection of independent states with free trade agreement and free movement of people, we would live in a very different world.

Benefits is that there are a lot to negotiate internally besides free trade agreements and it gives negotiation power in the global arena, now that there are at least 3 superpowers (USA, China, Russia to the lesser extent).

(P.S. Didn't downvote)

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#82

Post by sparkling »

d215 wrote: post #77
sparkling wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the EU is trying to do has been done in the past and it has failed. The EU as it is right now is becoming the next Sovient Union. A undemocratic, centralised, bureaucratic superstate that strips the people from their sovereignty, independence, cultural and ethnic traditions. Further, you seem to assume that without the EU, trade between countries would somehow radically decrease, i don't see that happening. The…

> What the EU is trying to do has been done in the past and it has failed. First, If we would never try what in the past has failed then we would be really in a very stagnant state. Second, the EU has not failed, the EU is still the main reason for the prosperity most of its members have gained and still continue to gain after WWII. That it has had some backlashes recently does not mean at all that it has failed. > T…

> It is however necessary for a internal economic market that guarantees the free flow of capital and labor

That is, by definition, the purpose of the European Economic Area. Not the EU.

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#83

Post by spiderfarmer »

pinaceae wrote: post #74

The most successful peace project on European soil of the last 1000 years can continue. Naysayers of the EU need to learn history. It is worth every penny, every inch of inconvenience. TWO fucking world wars were started by Europe, by nations that formed the Coal/Steel Union after 45 and now enjoy the longest, uninterrupted period of peace since, like, EVER. The EU's economy is the largest in the world. You don't fuc…

Except if you're British and voted for Brexit to fuck with your government without thinking it would actually mean adieu. FTFY

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#84

Post by pavlov »

YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 wrote: post #37

I'm sure we're about to get blown back by the storm of articles analysing how institutional misogyny played a part in a presidential election that a woman lost ... not. Not sure if this is HN material, though.

If Macron (or his campaign) had talked about Le Pen the same way Trump's troops did about Clinton, you would have a point. But I can't remember seeing any of that.

(Compare to the Republican National Convention last year where sexist merchandise insulting Clinton was everywhere. One t-shirt read: "KFC Hillary special: 2 fat thighs. 2 small breasts. Left wing.")

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#85

Post by __ddd__ »

DonHopkins wrote: post #63
YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Left – tolerant as ever when it comes to differing opinions.

What's wrong with not tolerating intolerance? Not to be confused with not tolerating not tolerating intolerance, which is a totally different thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance Philosopher Karl Popper defined the paradox in 1945 in The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1. Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend u…

You didn't present your argument in meme form, not sure you're going to change any minds...

When a negative tendency must be negated, there are always people who pretend the negation is no different. It's a question of what/who not to tolerate, and why -- the answer doesn't fit in an image macro or on a bumper sticker, just as it can't be packaged in a word like "intolerance".

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#86

Post by NicoJuicy »

wsc981 wrote: post #19
orf wrote: post #2

As a European this comes as a huge relief, especially given the poorly-timed email leak (with Russian names in the metadata). Here's to hoping that Europe can continue working together and begin to reform itself, and not tear itself apart like some of our American 'allies' on the (alt-)right would like. Lots of challenges ahead, but we wouldn't want it to be too easy now would we?

As a European I see this as a huge concern. Choosing Macron means keeping the status quo, which means continued mass immigration, continued bad economic policy, etc... in Europe. I am sure the bankers will be glad as will the European Commission and the multinationals, but the common people will become disillusioned in a few years as more and more terrorist attacks will happen into Europe and the problems with the ec…

The principles of the EU are great, just badly executed. Europe is not dead, there is however democracy which isn't as easy as dictatorship. Let's see how the brexit turns out also, right now it's too soon to tell

Even Trump publicly changed his opinion ;)

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#87

Post by skocznymroczny »

jjcc wrote: post #47
mlcdf wrote: post #20

11M people voted for Le Pen. This number is terrifyingly high.

If Sarkozy didn't change the regime of Libya by bombing based on lies which are still under cover by main stream media, there might be no such an immigration wave caused by war and chaos. Today main stream media still try to avoid to associate their bias reports with the change in public opinion. It seems to me that main stream media is part of if not all of reasons caused such situation today.

Most "refugees" aren't even coming from Libya or Syria. It's just free for all, everyone who isn't white is welcome in Europe for the moment, just leave the shore and NGOs will gladly pick you up and ferry to the Italian coast.

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#88

Post by spiderfarmer »

DonHopkins wrote: post #63
YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Left – tolerant as ever when it comes to differing opinions.

What's wrong with not tolerating intolerance? Not to be confused with not tolerating not tolerating intolerance, which is a totally different thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance Philosopher Karl Popper defined the paradox in 1945 in The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1. Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend u…

The people blaming the left for not tolerating intolerance don't actually think this deep, to them it's just a meme or oneliner, often coupled with exclamation marks and words like snowflake, liberal tears and cuck.

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#89

Post by cm2187 »

Boothroid wrote: post #45
orf wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with the downvotes you are receiving, you make some good overall points (but also some bad ones). Nothing is dead until it is entirely dead, and the EU idea still runs strong in people. Things need to change, as Brexit and the recent problems faced by the union have shown. Now it's down to the time to reform. I don't think Macron is choosing the status quo though, hes as much as a political outsider as…

A former Rothschild banker - surely part of the establishment, but perhaps a different part

It's funny that he has this image of being a banker. This guy did all of his career at the ministry of finance or in a minister's staff, then went to monetize his address book for two years in a bank before coming back to politics. I don't really see him as a banker. I see him as a civil servant and a networking artist.

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#90

Post by Boothroid »

pinaceae wrote: post #74

The most successful peace project on European soil of the last 1000 years can continue. Naysayers of the EU need to learn history. It is worth every penny, every inch of inconvenience. TWO fucking world wars were started by Europe, by nations that formed the Coal/Steel Union after 45 and now enjoy the longest, uninterrupted period of peace since, like, EVER. The EU's economy is the largest in the world. You don't fuc…

Trolling? Regardless, Firstly I'd say the EU was secondary to the US and USSR/latterly Russia in controlling war in Europe. Secondly I suppose I could lower myself to your tone by making the point that the UK is a nuclear weapons state and generally you don't f with that either, and lastly most people in the UK don't care about the empire, and the topic usually seems to be raised by people having a pop at the UK.
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