This video proves that mammon is still as much of a religion as its always been.
It’s a Wonderful Loaf
21–30 of 39 posts
Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your arguments against markets can be boiled down to: 1. It's not actually a TRUE free market, which is tough to argue but seemingly would invalidate all your next points. I think "free" is a relative term compared to the state-run model of food production. 2. Gluten free bread was not available in your bakery because it was too expensive and customer was unwilling to pay more (markets working). But gluten free bread…
Your argument seems to boils down to "markets working." But they're not working for everyone. For example, the current housing market is working for large real estate companies that had the capital to buy up risk laden foreclosed homes. It's often not working for working class renters.
Again, not working compared to what?
Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It is therefore a curiosity that the most free-market obsessed leaders appear to be those most likely to pursue conflict. Source? List of ongoing armed conflicts [0]. Very little in relatively free-market areas such as the US and Europe. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflict...
The U.S. and other leading colonial governments have interfered in foreign governments for decades. Source: Noam Chomsky.
Okay, compared to non-market economies that have been bastions of civil liberties?
Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your argument seems to boils down to "markets working." But they're not working for everyone. For example, the current housing market is working for large real estate companies that had the capital to buy up risk laden foreclosed homes. It's often not working for working class renters.
Again, not working compared to what?
In the cartoon, an example is given of bread using all the wheat that is needed for pizza dough.
Well, for people I know who work 40 hours a week and are still homeless, compared to anything.
The commodification of homes and neighborhoods is pushing people to participate economically in ways that cut short time for other important life stuff: self care, raising children, building healthy relationships, cleaning, cooking, creating, gardening. There is plenty of space to live, but these markets are making it very difficult for people to make the kinds of decentralized arrangements the cartoon espouses.
Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf
#25> [Boris] Yeltsin, then 58, “roamed the aisles of Randall’s nodding his head in amazement,” wrote Asin. He told his fellow Russians in his entourage that if their people, who often must wait in line for most goods, saw the conditions of U.S. supermarkets, “there would be a revolution." Supermarkets and food production are an excellent example of how markets work effectively in Western countries. One of the great prac…
Oh yes. Food production is now dependent on a handful of companies supplying to the major supermarkets. This became apparent recently in the UK when hummus was contaminated with a yet unnamed contaminant that gave it a metallic taste. Most supermarkets were affected and had empty shelves. [0] Milk is another example: supermarkets have used milk as a loss leader to entice people to shop with them for their weekly shop…
an unnamed contaminant?
Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf
#26The bread example is funny, considering how heavily subsidized wheat is around the world. So where's the creator of this video at in repealing the farm bill? There's too much "market demand" for a farm bill that works for some farms and not others. They have "bought" politicians who deliver what they "demand".
If you're genuinely interested, the writer of this poem, Russ Roberts, has in fact interviewed Daniel Sumner on that very subject, and they discuss in detail what subsidies exist in American agriculture, and the political economies that make them difficult to repeal.
http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2015/02/daniel_sumner_o.htm...
Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf
#27> True economic maestros are as rare as unicorns
Are they? In the sense of fantastical dreams of communism, yes, but I think we are seeing proof every other week that the opposite is true. There is a staggering amount of power concentrated on few individuals/families, carried across generations.
Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your arguments against markets can be boiled down to: 1. It's not actually a TRUE free market, which is tough to argue but seemingly would invalidate all your next points. I think "free" is a relative term compared to the state-run model of food production. 2. Gluten free bread was not available in your bakery because it was too expensive and customer was unwilling to pay more (markets working). But gluten free bread…
1. The argument for constant overproduction, and non-availability of a real free market is called: starvation. If to many farmers give up, and speculants on futures can hold grain back, people starve. Has happened several times. One could argue, that this has positive outcomes as well- ideologues are less energetic on a purely capitalistic diet. PS: Because there is always a counter example that markets could work- h…
You make a good point. Communist countries tend not to have a lot of obesity.
Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf
#29I appreciate all the comments. There is always a question of what is a "free" market. Government plays an important role in enforcing contracts and trying to preserve private property. And as some people have pointed out here, government subsidizes wheat, keeps out competition, and so on. Yet in many cities with very different roles for government, bread is still plentiful. What the poem tries to get at is the fundamental principal of emergence that makes bread plentiful across diverse political environments. The most important "free" part of those markets is allowing prices to adjust. Governments that play with prices (Venezuela is the tragic example today) can prevent the supply of bread from emerging.
For those who want to go deeper into these ideas there is an annotated version of the poem here: http://wonderfulloaf.org/poem and a long list of essays, talks, and interviews on the ideas in the poem, here: http://wonderfulloaf.org/resources
Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
Again, not working compared to what?
In the cartoon, an example is given of bread using all the wheat that is needed for pizza dough. Well, for people I know who work 40 hours a week and are still homeless, compared to anything . The commodification of homes and neighborhoods is pushing people to participate economically in ways that cut short time for other important life stuff: self care, raising children, building healthy relationships, cleaning, coo…
I don't think it's commodification. In cities where the government doesn't artificially make it hard to build new houses, housing is much more affordable.