61–70 of 96 posts
Is this really stealing? I thought abandoned / destroyed ships in international waters were essentially fair game for salvage. What laws would even apply there?
If there are bodies inside, it is considered a war grave. What do the salvagers do with the human remains? I imagine they don't try to contact relatives or respectfully take care of them.
Is this really stealing? I thought abandoned / destroyed ships in international waters were essentially fair game for salvage. What laws would even apply there?
If there are bodies inside, it is considered a war grave. What do the salvagers do with the human remains? I imagine they don't try to contact relatives or respectfully take care of them.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
So when westerners dig up mummies in Egypt, cart them to the Louvre and sell tickets for the privilege of visitation, that's historical research but when folks in poorer countries dig up metal from abandoned ships to sell, it's grave-robbing. Our ability for self-deception is breath taking.
Cultural sensitivity has increased, especially in the last 30 years or so. In the example of Egyptian mummies, they would be covered under the 1983 law of Protection of Antiquities. There's an ongoing controversy around the Elgin Marbles, which were removed to London between 1801 and 1805, and many people believe they should be returned. I think there's an increasing recognition that the historic behaviour of archaeo…
It has not increased to any degree near adequate. But remove antiquities foreign antiquities from European museums and see how barren the halls and storage become... So I guess 'sensitivity' isn't going to increase any more than present levels.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sunken warships are graves (graveyards maybe, not a sailor myself). So stealing them is grave robbing.
A grave is a designated burial site for a body. They aren't graves they are just places where people happened to die. I am writing this right now in literally the exact spot where thousands died during the Battle of Brooklyn in the Revolutionary War. We subsequently moved on, they built Brooklyn Heights and DUMBO and a rather notable bridge here. It happens.
Both the US and UK seem to protect sunken military vessels for this reason.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Cultural sensitivity has increased, especially in the last 30 years or so. In the example of Egyptian mummies, they would be covered under the 1983 law of Protection of Antiquities. There's an ongoing controversy around the Elgin Marbles, which were removed to London between 1801 and 1805, and many people believe they should be returned. I think there's an increasing recognition that the historic behaviour of archaeo…
> Cultural sensitivity has increased ... It has not increased to any degree near adequate. But remove antiquities foreign antiquities from European museums and see how barren the halls and storage become... So I guess 'sensitivity' isn't going to increase any more than present levels.
It's a really interesting story, but I don't get the general slant. Doesn't it make more sense for us to recover high quality steeel that's sitting there unused instead of carving up yet another mountain and burning tons of coal to make it from scratch?
The article also discusses the fact that sunken vessels are home to a lot of marine life - local fisheries get their catch there, as the wildlife thrives in those locations. Thus salvaging the steel robs local folk of their income.
I think that another way of looking at this story is some 'god' miraculously tidying up the litter that humans have carelessly left at the bottom of the ocean for one reason or another. In this magic universe the mystery tidy-up persons should be thanked for doing such a thorough job, leaving not so much as a bolt behind.
It is all so much easier if the human remains part is conveniently ignored.
I would assume that we have or could develop the technology to place audio and video recording equipment on any historically significant sites.
So WWII steel is particularly good for making nuclear devices, and it would require nation state resources to steal an entire sunken ship without anyone noticing. Which nation state can we think of who would want to do that?
I don't buy that claim. The amount of nuclear contamination in steel is really small. It matters when you're building sensitive instruments, but I don't think nuclear weapons care very much. After all, they contain at least several pounds of radioactive material by necessity. A tiny amount of extra background radiation from the steel casing won't affect things. Adding to my doubt is the article's mention of "pre-1942…
Back at the time, there was not very much requirement for nuclear safety/contamination prevention... so if you want steel definitely free from non-natural radiation you'll need 1942 or earlier steel.
I don't understand the arguments people are making that this is somehow grave robbing. Grave robbing you open up a grave and steal the personal artifacts and possibly the bones of the person interred there. Archaeologists have done a lot of this over the years and that activity is definitely grave robbing. It's a bit more restricted now in the US due to the NAGRA that restricts messing with human remains in some cont…
It would be like you being buried in a coffin in a stone church and then one day someone decides they want the stones and they take the whole church ... including you :) As a relative i would be pretty pissed about that too.
If they were correctly identifying bodies and returning them to their families for proper burial etc... then it might be ok to reuse the steel.