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Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

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Re: Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

#51

Post by keithpeter »

devoply wrote: post #3

I am personally with the salvagers. They are making good use of an economic resource for themselves and for others. They are also cleaning the ocean of old debris, not getting lost in some misplaced sense of sentimentality. If the home countries of these vessels want them so bad they should simply salvage them themselves. It's stupid that we have laws that protect stuff that sunk over a few decades ago. If you can't…

I take your point. I grew up in a seaside community that was notorious for questionable activities in the 18th and 19th centuries[1],[2]. There is a blunt harsh practical opportunistic side to seagoing people that might surprise you.

How do we balance the opportunity afforded to the salvagers against the grazing rights of the local fisherfolk? Is there a replacement structure that can be sunk locally like a concrete wall or honeycomb? Is there research on the time scale needed to seed the coral colonies? Should we place all pre-1942 steel in a UN mandated market?

[1] http://www.historyofwallasey.co.uk/wallasey/story_of_the_day...

[2] https://www.tutorhunt.com/resource/7035/

Re: Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

#53

Post by Spooky23 »

sfifs wrote: post #18
roel_v wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sunken warships are graves (graveyards maybe, not a sailor myself). So stealing them is grave robbing.

So when westerners dig up mummies in Egypt, cart them to the Louvre and sell tickets for the privilege of visitation, that's historical research but when folks in poorer countries dig up metal from abandoned ships to sell, it's grave-robbing. Our ability for self-deception is breath taking.

The passing of millennia blunt the emotional aspects.

Also, to assuage your cultural guilt, Egyptians, who feel no linkage to ancient people, are now digging up artifacts to hock to various wealthy collectors in the Middle East and Europe.

Re: Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

#54

Post by mikeash »

PaulAJ wrote: post #52

So WWII steel is particularly good for making nuclear devices, and it would require nation state resources to steal an entire sunken ship without anyone noticing. Which nation state can we think of who would want to do that?

I don't buy that claim. The amount of nuclear contamination in steel is really small. It matters when you're building sensitive instruments, but I don't think nuclear weapons care very much. After all, they contain at least several pounds of radioactive material by necessity. A tiny amount of extra background radiation from the steel casing won't affect things.

Adding to my doubt is the article's mention of "pre-1942 vessels." Why would that be the date? The first nuclear weapon was detonated in summer 1945, and I'd wager that contamination remained sufficiently low until sometime in the 50s. According to this page, there were only 7 nuclear test explosions in the 40s, for a total of 9 nuclear explosions all together:

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/nucleartesttally

But even if a single bomb is too much, the date should be 1945.

Re: Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

#55

Post by mikeash »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #47

I don't understand the author's confusion as to how a ship wreck could quietly be lifted without a trace, we were doing it in the Cold War. Granted back in 1974 [0] such a project was very expensive but GPS and ship stability has gotten cheaper/better and these war ships are not nearly as deep. The oil and gas industry uses GPS stabilized vessels during exploration and production. This shouldn't be that hard for a de…

Incidentally, GPS stabilization is also used for SpaceX's ocean landing platforms. The barge is able to keep itself within a few meters of its target position. The rocket doesn't track the barge at all. It's just programmed to fly to the prearranged position where the barge will be.

Re: Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

#57

Post by mikeash »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #44
cheath wrote: post #23

I find it fascinating that there is enough human introduced radioactivity in our atmosphere that it's measurable in steel and even problematic for the creation of some medical devices et al.

I was wondering the same thing. If ambient levels of radiation have been raised so much since the dawn of nuclear testing, could that be partially to blame for the corresponding rise in cancer about that time?

There is definitely an effect, but the numbers are relatively small compared to the overall risk of cancer. This article discusses it extensively:

http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/fallout-from-nuc...

The overall picture seems to be that thousands of people will get cancer as a result of fallout from nuclear testing, but millions of people get cancer for other reasons, so it's not a major effect.

Re: Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

#58

Post by blackguardx »

pavement wrote: post #22
roel_v wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sunken warships are graves (graveyards maybe, not a sailor myself). So stealing them is grave robbing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_at_sea I think it's generally well-understood that when your remains rest in the ocean, you become fish food. The vast expanse of water itself is your tomb, not some little square on the floor. Argue over the vehicle wreckage, but don't misplace your sentimentality.

The bodies aboard these ships are there because people were often trapped in compartments and couldn't get out. It isn't a wreckage with bodies littering the floor around it. The bodies are literally inside the wreckage.

Re: Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

#59

Post by manarth »

sfifs wrote: post #18
roel_v wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sunken warships are graves (graveyards maybe, not a sailor myself). So stealing them is grave robbing.

So when westerners dig up mummies in Egypt, cart them to the Louvre and sell tickets for the privilege of visitation, that's historical research but when folks in poorer countries dig up metal from abandoned ships to sell, it's grave-robbing. Our ability for self-deception is breath taking.

Cultural sensitivity has increased, especially in the last 30 years or so. In the example of Egyptian mummies, they would be covered under the 1983 law of Protection of Antiquities.

There's an ongoing controversy around the Elgin Marbles, which were removed to London between 1801 and 1805, and many people believe they should be returned.

I think there's an increasing recognition that the historic behaviour of archaeologists removing artifacts for display wasn't necessarily acceptable, but addressing past wrongs is much harder than preventing new ones.

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