Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts • Hacker News Board

Re: Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

#41

Post by marcosdumay » Sat, May 06, 2017, 3:19 PM UTC

Matt3o12_ wrote: post #27

DanBC wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between scrap metal and historically significant sites? The Neolithic stone circle at Avebury, Wiltshire, had several stones removed by local villages who wanted stone to build cottages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avebury In the centre of this screen, just south of Tunnel House In, you can see a square outline in a field. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Coates,+Cirencester/@51.... That's…

Historical sites are normally somewhat maintained and preserved. They are also quite often seen by tourists who are interested in those sites. Most sunken ships, they just sit there and nobody wants to take responsibility and maintain them so that no oil and fuel gets into the ocean. Furthermore, there is little to see. Sure there is some historical information on them but we should save those otherwise the ocean des…

The article goes to a great length about how those ships are popular tourist destinations.

Re: Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

#42

Post by sandworm101 » Sat, May 06, 2017, 3:30 PM UTC

Note that this is only about warships... not ships generally. Plenty of sailors went down, in war, on non-warships. Those are not afforded the same ethics and were long ago violently cut up for salvage. This boils down to odd laws, specifically that warships remain property of thier governments forever. Non-warships are free for the taking once "abandoned" by owners (oversimplification for space). Dead people are dead people. Why we get upset about the wargrave of someone in uniform, but dont think twice about the wargrave of someone not, eludes me.

Re: Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

#43

Post by ryanmarsh » Sat, May 06, 2017, 3:49 PM UTC

sfifs wrote: post #18

roel_v wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sunken warships are graves (graveyards maybe, not a sailor myself). So stealing them is grave robbing.

So when westerners dig up mummies in Egypt, cart them to the Louvre and sell tickets for the privilege of visitation, that's historical research but when folks in poorer countries dig up metal from abandoned ships to sell, it's grave-robbing. Our ability for self-deception is breath taking.

You mean more like northerners. Europe isn't all that far west of Egypt.

Re: Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

#44

Post by ryanmarsh » Sat, May 06, 2017, 3:51 PM UTC

cheath wrote: post #23

I find it fascinating that there is enough human introduced radioactivity in our atmosphere that it's measurable in steel and even problematic for the creation of some medical devices et al.

I was wondering the same thing. If ambient levels of radiation have been raised so much since the dawn of nuclear testing, could that be partially to blame for the corresponding rise in cancer about that time?

Re: Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

#45

Post by valuearb » Sat, May 06, 2017, 3:51 PM UTC

I'm pretty sure humans can't scavenge entire 4,000 ton warships from bottom of the sea, leaving only their indentation on the sea floor.

Re: Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

#46

Post by ryanmarsh » Sat, May 06, 2017, 3:52 PM UTC

droithomme wrote: post #35

I don't understand the arguments people are making that this is somehow grave robbing. Grave robbing you open up a grave and steal the personal artifacts and possibly the bones of the person interred there. Archaeologists have done a lot of this over the years and that activity is definitely grave robbing. It's a bit more restricted now in the US due to the NAGRA that restricts messing with human remains in some cont…

If it's grave robbing it won't be for long. Water is the universal solvent and fish need to eat too.

Re: Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

#47

Post by ryanmarsh » Sat, May 06, 2017, 4:00 PM UTC

I don't understand the author's confusion as to how a ship wreck could quietly be lifted without a trace, we were doing it in the Cold War. Granted back in 1974 [0] such a project was very expensive but GPS and ship stability has gotten cheaper/better and these war ships are not nearly as deep. The oil and gas industry uses GPS stabilized vessels during exploration and production. This shouldn't be that hard for a determined scavenger.

0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Azorian

Re: Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

#48

Post by nitwit005 » Sat, May 06, 2017, 4:34 PM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #11

CPLX wrote: post #4

It's a really interesting story, but I don't get the general slant. Doesn't it make more sense for us to recover high quality steeel that's sitting there unused instead of carving up yet another mountain and burning tons of coal to make it from scratch?

Sunken warships are graves (graveyards maybe, not a sailor myself). So stealing them is grave robbing.

So are crashed cars. When we find them in the wilderness, we take the bodies out, drag them off, and scrap them.

Re: Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

#49

Post by imgabe » Sat, May 06, 2017, 4:42 PM UTC

Is this really stealing? I thought abandoned / destroyed ships in international waters were essentially fair game for salvage. What laws would even apply there?

Re: Thieves Who Steal Sunken Warships, Right Down to the Bolts

#50

Post by blackguardx » Sat, May 06, 2017, 4:48 PM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #49

Is this really stealing? I thought abandoned / destroyed ships in international waters were essentially fair game for salvage. What laws would even apply there?

If there are bodies inside, it is considered a war grave. What do the salvagers do with the human remains? I imagine they don't try to contact relatives or respectfully take care of them.