It’s a Wonderful Loaf • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf

#11

Post by dpwm » Sat, May 06, 2017, 2:01 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #6

> [Boris] Yeltsin, then 58, “roamed the aisles of Randall’s nodding his head in amazement,” wrote Asin. He told his fellow Russians in his entourage that if their people, who often must wait in line for most goods, saw the conditions of U.S. supermarkets, “there would be a revolution." Supermarkets and food production are an excellent example of how markets work effectively in Western countries. One of the great prac…

Oh yes. Food production is now dependent on a handful of companies supplying to the major supermarkets. This became apparent recently in the UK when hummus was contaminated with a yet unnamed contaminant that gave it a metallic taste. Most supermarkets were affected and had empty shelves. [0]

Milk is another example: supermarkets have used milk as a loss leader to entice people to shop with them for their weekly shop. Now farmers are being squeezed. The bigger ones can invest in more automation, the poorer ones cannot.

What happens when food production is concentrated in the hands of fewer companies?

What happens when a supermarket chain decides that they can bring increased efficiency to food production and farming by controlling from end to end. Isn't that what Amazon has done with deliveries and Amazon Logistics?

Immediately there's an efficiency improvements and the cost of bread can decrease. Competitors go out of business. But we're now dependant on one source for bread. What method do they use to decide how much bread to produce?

This video presents an idealised version of capitalism and attacks a straw-man of central planning. Crucially, it does not mention that during times of war, when resources are scarce, that all that the video celebrates gets abandoned and something that looks suspiciously like central planning gets adopted.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/apr/25/humour-bypa...

Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf

#12

Post by bko » Sat, May 06, 2017, 2:34 PM UTC

dpwm wrote: post #11

bko wrote: post #6

> [Boris] Yeltsin, then 58, “roamed the aisles of Randall’s nodding his head in amazement,” wrote Asin. He told his fellow Russians in his entourage that if their people, who often must wait in line for most goods, saw the conditions of U.S. supermarkets, “there would be a revolution." Supermarkets and food production are an excellent example of how markets work effectively in Western countries. One of the great prac…

Oh yes. Food production is now dependent on a handful of companies supplying to the major supermarkets. This became apparent recently in the UK when hummus was contaminated with a yet unnamed contaminant that gave it a metallic taste. Most supermarkets were affected and had empty shelves. [0] Milk is another example: supermarkets have used milk as a loss leader to entice people to shop with them for their weekly shop…

I would argue that integrated markets and mutually beneficial trade are a big reason countries don't go to war.

Markets are wonderfully adaptable, much more so that central planning. Don't have to source right now but I read that Japan had supplied most of the US rubber before ww2. After the war broke out and trading stopped, there was a big incentive to develop a synthetic rubber, which was accomplished very quickly.

Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf

#13

Post by grndn » Sat, May 06, 2017, 2:46 PM UTC

For a counterpoint, see the "Victorian Bakers" doc from the BBC: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4h8mty. See 11 min mark for bakery conditions and 23:30 for flour adulteration. The free market at its finest with no regulation.

Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf

#14

Post by phoenixProgram » Sat, May 06, 2017, 2:51 PM UTC

get this jew stuff off here

jews: don't post this junk

Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf

#15

Post by dpwm » Sat, May 06, 2017, 3:02 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #12

dpwm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yes. Food production is now dependent on a handful of companies supplying to the major supermarkets. This became apparent recently in the UK when hummus was contaminated with a yet unnamed contaminant that gave it a metallic taste. Most supermarkets were affected and had empty shelves. [0] Milk is another example: supermarkets have used milk as a loss leader to entice people to shop with them for their weekly shop…

I would argue that integrated markets and mutually beneficial trade are a big reason countries don't go to war. Markets are wonderfully adaptable, much more so that central planning. Don't have to source right now but I read that Japan had supplied most of the US rubber before ww2. After the war broke out and trading stopped, there was a big incentive to develop a synthetic rubber, which was accomplished very quickly…

It is therefore a curiosity that the most free-market obsessed leaders appear to be those most likely to pursue conflict.

How do you prevent monopolies? Ideas that lead to wealth decay or redistribution seem to be an anathema in modern capitalist societies. Regulation apparently stifles the market. How does the monopoly avoid overproduction? Lean methodologies?

[edit] Edited too much out to the point where it seems curt. I'm interested in free-market proponents' views on monopolies. Also, forgot to mention I found the info about synthetic rubber to be particularly interesting -- Wikipedia has more info including posters.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_rubber#World_War_I...

Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf

#16

Post by kiba » Sat, May 06, 2017, 3:15 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #12

dpwm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yes. Food production is now dependent on a handful of companies supplying to the major supermarkets. This became apparent recently in the UK when hummus was contaminated with a yet unnamed contaminant that gave it a metallic taste. Most supermarkets were affected and had empty shelves. [0] Milk is another example: supermarkets have used milk as a loss leader to entice people to shop with them for their weekly shop…

I would argue that integrated markets and mutually beneficial trade are a big reason countries don't go to war. Markets are wonderfully adaptable, much more so that central planning. Don't have to source right now but I read that Japan had supplied most of the US rubber before ww2. After the war broke out and trading stopped, there was a big incentive to develop a synthetic rubber, which was accomplished very quickly…

The US would have tremendous incentive to develop synthetic rubber because of the war anyway, markets or not.

Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf

#17

Post by bko » Sat, May 06, 2017, 3:16 PM UTC

dpwm wrote: post #15

bko wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that integrated markets and mutually beneficial trade are a big reason countries don't go to war. Markets are wonderfully adaptable, much more so that central planning. Don't have to source right now but I read that Japan had supplied most of the US rubber before ww2. After the war broke out and trading stopped, there was a big incentive to develop a synthetic rubber, which was accomplished very quickly…

It is therefore a curiosity that the most free-market obsessed leaders appear to be those most likely to pursue conflict. How do you prevent monopolies? Ideas that lead to wealth decay or redistribution seem to be an anathema in modern capitalist societies. Regulation apparently stifles the market. How does the monopoly avoid overproduction? Lean methodologies? [edit] Edited too much out to the point where it seems c…

> It is therefore a curiosity that the most free-market obsessed leaders appear to be those most likely to pursue conflict.

Source?

List of ongoing armed conflicts [0]. Very little in relatively free-market areas such as the US and Europe.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflict...

Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf

#18

Post by blurbleblurble » Sat, May 06, 2017, 4:27 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #17

dpwm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is therefore a curiosity that the most free-market obsessed leaders appear to be those most likely to pursue conflict. How do you prevent monopolies? Ideas that lead to wealth decay or redistribution seem to be an anathema in modern capitalist societies. Regulation apparently stifles the market. How does the monopoly avoid overproduction? Lean methodologies? [edit] Edited too much out to the point where it seems c…

> It is therefore a curiosity that the most free-market obsessed leaders appear to be those most likely to pursue conflict. Source? List of ongoing armed conflicts [0]. Very little in relatively free-market areas such as the US and Europe. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflict...

The U.S. and other leading colonial governments have interfered in foreign governments for decades. Source: Noam Chomsky.

Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf

#19

Post by blurbleblurble » Sat, May 06, 2017, 4:32 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #7

Pica_soO wrote: post #4

Taking a bread loaf. What a horrible choice. If anything is as far away from a free market - its the food and power supply markets. There are incentives by near all states for constant overproduction. The remainder is shipped off as animal-food or gift to poor countries (basically produce bound charity). And that's just the farmers. The millers have vanished in Germany over the last 20 years until there where just a…

Your arguments against markets can be boiled down to: 1. It's not actually a TRUE free market, which is tough to argue but seemingly would invalidate all your next points. I think "free" is a relative term compared to the state-run model of food production. 2. Gluten free bread was not available in your bakery because it was too expensive and customer was unwilling to pay more (markets working). But gluten free bread…

Your argument seems to boils down to "markets working."

But they're not working for everyone. For example, the current housing market is working for large real estate companies that had the capital to buy up risk laden foreclosed homes. It's often not working for working class renters.

Re: It’s a Wonderful Loaf

#20

Post by blurbleblurble » Sat, May 06, 2017, 4:37 PM UTC

The bread example is funny, considering how heavily subsidized wheat is around the world. So where's the creator of this video at in repealing the farm bill?

There's too much "market demand" for a farm bill that works for some farms and not others. They have "bought" politicians who deliver what they "demand".