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Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

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Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#231

Post by throwanem »

CalChris wrote: post #56
aphextron wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again. This is dead on. I am a veteran currently going back to school for an engineering degree on the GI bill. When I got out of the service I didn't even consider going back to school, and just taught myself how to code and started working as a web developer. Once I made it to the point of working with other software en…

The JC system is awesome. From there you can transfer just about anywhere. We had vets as reentry students at Berkeley. I can't imagine taking a coding boot camp student seriously. And these fly by night schools have a history of fleeing vets.

> I can't imagine taking a coding boot camp student seriously.

I felt more or less the same. Then I worked with a few, all second-career starters from a variety of boot camps. Not all were great or even good at what they did - but some, one in particular, were excellent. The latter group seemed to share a degree of native intelligence, drive, and perseverance which didn't seem to occur all together in any of the former. It was almost as though the fact of having graduated a boot camp, by itself, predicted nothing useful at all...

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#232

Post by zamalek »

greggman wrote: post #182

I would love for more people to code and I would love for veterans for find work but .... My impression is those who excel at coding (like everything else) love doing it. So, I would expect the majority to fail. It's doesn't seem like a skill like riding a bike where you learn it once and then it's just this thing you can pull out whenever (or maybe it just takes longer to get to that point). My point is, whenever I…

I'm pretty sure that anyone could learn to code. However you need an atypical mind (not superior, just different) to truly excel at it. I'm not sure if that comes about due to nature or due to nurture, but both could be out of reach of adults depending on which developmental theories you subscribe to.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#233

Post by throwanem »

dpwm wrote: post #67
aaronchall wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree on the brick-and-mortar schools suggestion. I wrote this in favor of them: https://academia.stackexchange.com/q/14833/9518 > Students overwhelmingly report retaining and applying less from online courses versus face-to-face courses. > However, this may be due to a difference in factors other than distance learning. However, I find your insult to Trump voters gratuitous and unnecessary.

> However, I find your insult to Trump voters gratuitous and unnecessary. I read it without placing the emphasis on the colon and I'm sure it's less barbed and strengthens the point: They are like [the] Trump voters willing to throw their lot in with whomever tells them "it will be okay", regardless of how unscrupulous and incompetent those promise-makers are. That there were some, not all, trump voters who were actu…

Trump was "shockingly honest" - and it was shocking! - about a lot of things about which Nice People Don't Speak, all throughout the election cycle. His bombshell about buying politicians in the first GOP debate is a sterling example - roughly from memory: "I know you guys are for sale because I buy you all the time!"

Shocking indeed. But not on substance - no one familiar with modern US politics would seriously doubt that most politicians are absolutely for sale, although probably not thinking of it in those terms, or that the two meaningful parties do absolutely sucker rubes into voting for cynically promised outcomes which often aren't even plausible and are the rest of the time rarely pursued. Obama was the best I've seen in my lifetime, in terms of trying hard to live up to his campaign promises and also being competent to pursue them, and even he only passes if we grade on a real generous curve.

No, what's shocking is that anyone would say it, at least where the rubes might hear. And, again, that is shocking! One does not expect to hear the inchoate doubts shared among much of the electorate confirmed outright by a major-party candidate. And I suppose if one confidently expects to get screwed either way, it might make some sense to vote for the guy who's at least honest about it.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#234

Post by mac01021 »

brianwawok wrote: post #46
kasey_junk wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are being downvoted I suspect because people are assuming you mean it's not possible to learn to code in 2 years, when what I suspect you mean is "why waste resources on poorly planned school curriculum regardless of timing when other options (such as the apprentice model) are available"

Yes exactly. I learned tons in college. Still not enough to make my own crud app. In that way, bootcamps do a better job. If we are doing a 2 year turbo degree, they could learn a lot from boot camps.

So, after you finished your degree and started trying to learn to make a CRUD app, how long did it take you to be able to make such an app and reason intelligently about its behavior?

How long would it have taken you if you had not done that degree first?

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#235

Post by muninn_ »

jlarocco wrote: post #52
muninn_ wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but as the article mentioned the veteran needed an accelerated timeline because of family obligations and couldn't afford the time not working to attend a traditional 4 year university.

That's unfortunate, but coding schools don't come close to covering what a regular degree program covers, and they're not a substitute.

They do fine for a lot of programming jobs. If you're going to work at a DoD contractor or something, work on the team maintaining a hospital website, or work in enterprise architecture you don't need a 4-year college degree in CS. I actually think you're better off getting a degree in something else and just learning to code on your own time for the vast majority of people.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#236

Post by [deleted] »

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #218
greggman wrote: post #182

I would love for more people to code and I would love for veterans for find work but .... My impression is those who excel at coding (like everything else) love doing it. So, I would expect the majority to fail. It's doesn't seem like a skill like riding a bike where you learn it once and then it's just this thing you can pull out whenever (or maybe it just takes longer to get to that point). My point is, whenever I…

>It's doesn't seem like a skill like riding a bike where you learn it once and then it's just this thing you can pull out whenever (or maybe it just takes longer to get to that point). Sure it is, you just need to see it as a skill that you need to work on and be disciplined about it. There are still a lot of places that can use daily automation that also don't have time/money to go looking for a product. Plenty of p…

[deleted]

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#237

Post by marcosdumay »

taneq wrote: post #164
crdoconnor wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weirdly they seem to ask the CS fundamentals that aren't as relevant (algorithms) and skip those that are (e.g. the relational model, data structures (uses of), type theory, formal grammar). I wouldn't say that you don't need it, but I would say that most companies ask about the wrong bits.

It always baffles me when people say that algorithms aren't relevant to software development. It's like saying thermodynamics isn't relevant to engine design.

It's more like saying that the detail of the thermodynamics cycle of the specific rotary piston engine of that plane that had one (nah, won't search it) is not relevant to "engine design" stated generally without any modifier.

Those interview questions aren't about "algorithms", they are about details of specific ones chosen by their complexity and that are rarely used in practice.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#238

Post by Tenobrus »

nradov wrote: post #102
RandomOpinion wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's nothing stopping these veterans from going to a regular university, college, or community college and getting a real degree in computer science, software engineering, or a related field. Nothing? Have a little empathy, buddy. While I have some sympathy for your opinion of coding bootcamps, just bear in mind that it's not easy giving up something you've been doing for a couple of decades and going back to co…

Citation needed. Where is your proof that mental flexibility is inversely correlated with age?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278262606...

Let me know if you can't access the full article/the abstract is not enough.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#239

Post by fictioncircle »

nkozyra wrote: post #217
fictioncircle wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The actual algorithm is irrelevant, so looking it up wouldn't be helpful. It isn't irrelevant if you are attempting to implement it correctly. > If you look something up and the interviewer asks you what the O() of your approach is and you don't know, how can they feel assured you grasp these fundamentals? That wasn't the original question in the comment I responded to and your attempt to re-phrase it as X when it…

> It isn't irrelevant if you are attempting to implement it correctly. Exactly my point. Rarely is there one "correct" implementation. Understanding the choice you make and can support is the point of coding interviews. That's why they're so often done in pseudocode and/or on the whiteboard. If you can look stuff up you're not demonstrating a knowledge of the fundamentals. If you don't understand complexity and optim…

> Exactly my point. Rarely is there one "correct" implementation.

For any given problem asked in such interviews there is certainly one correct implementation and if you believe otherwise you are not providing sufficient information to answer such a question.

> Understanding the choice you make and can support is the point of coding interviews. That's why they're so often done in pseudocode and/or on the whiteboard. > If you can look stuff up you're not demonstrating a knowledge of the fundamentals. If you don't understand complexity and optimization, you will make mistakes even if you can look stuff up later. > That's why these companies do these.

Honestly? This is part of the rant I was trying to avoid.

1) I've met developers that claim SHA-1 is a secure choice in 2017 and make other facepalm worthy claims that 5 minutes of research would have told them was a bad idea.

2) We've fired quite a few people who believe as you do precisely because they are so convinced they understand the fundamentals they don't look things up and make costly mistakes.

3) I've met accountants who can't correctly handle a 4-4-5 calendar that is integral to their jobs without looking things up. Similarly, I've met ones like you that genuinely believe they've memorized the "fundamentals" and repeatedly failed waste thousands of dollars.

4) I honestly believe anyone who refuses to look things up to double check is fundamentally incompetent. We all make mistakes and the only way to appropriately minimize them is to double check (i.e look things up) before hand and have someone else review it afterward.

5) I genuinely do not want to work with anyone who does not do #4. Ever. The sheer number of times they've attempted to shift blame onto other people before they were fired is simply not worth the hassle.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#240

Post by nealmydataorg »

We can help (free of charge) few veterans to code. Our startup provides low code platform to build custom business applications from custom workflow requirements. It is like building custom software from Lego components and it will be easier to learn by using Lego components as opposed to building Lego components. The end result of effort of coding will be custom business application which can help veterans land job. Please contact us by using email found in my profile. Thanks, Neal
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