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Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

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Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#221
Self-taught veteran coder here. I'm not great, but I've built a few things in Python (with a LOT of input from more experienced developers).

I never really thought about coding until I came to a developer with an idea and he said "Great now go build it."

It was very intimidating, but I was lucky because I had a boss who gave me the freedom to devote time to learning and many false-starts. It took about 6 months before I had something slammed together that worked.

I learned that coding (while hard) is not impossible to learn. More importantly I believe that it re-wired my brain for problem solving. I think more logically than I did before, and that has helped me to learn other skillset and further grow my career. I now have an MBA and work in finance.

So I'm sorry but I don't believe that coding is something that you have to be a natural rockstar to do. There are so many small and solvable problems out there and so few coders. These are still wildcatter days.

I do tend to agree about programming classes being rote, but isn't that true of any kind of education?

Perhaps what is more important is having an employer flexible enough to let their employees learn new skills while working.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#222
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a teacher, I think of innate ability and teachability as separate issues. Innate ability almost certainly (imo) sets an ultimate limit, but there's plenty of room for accomplishment before it's reached. I actually do believe that every programmer is ultimately constrained by individual neurological factors. But I've also taught 'normal' people to code. They may not have what it takes to independently arrive at usi…

I fail to see the relevance of comparing most working programmers to John Carmack.

Programmers don't abandon all hope because they aren't John Carmack. For the same reason, people below some IQ threshold shouldn't abandon all hope of contributing to software. There is a lot of different kinds of work needed, and a minimum intelligence level to contribute anything at all hasn't been established, to my knowledge.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#223

This is nuts. Only a small percentage of people can learn to effectively generate code. Thinking that veterans can be turned into developers is absurd - they'll get code-monkeys instead, with a few exceptions. I don't believe that, at this time in the USA or in the future, education will save people in software development from unemployment. The only thing that will do that is having some smarts. And if you're smart,…

> they'll get code-monkeys instead, with a few exceptions.

that's an expected outcome of most courses to teach programming. some will excel and others will merely pass. I think that's ok as far as outcome expectations go.

what concerns me more is the prevailing attitude among policy-makers that "tech jobs" is a magical panacea for all working class woes.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#224

Why don't community colleges move into this area?

a lot of community colleges already have courses like this. here is an example: http://www.bmcc.cuny.edu/cis/

it's essentially an accelerated vocational training program designed to feed in to either entry-level IT jobs, or upgrading to a proper Computer Science degree track. this is common in community colleges, afaik. there are multiple schools in New York City that do this anyway.

I guess the major difference is length of the program. community colleges aim for 2 year programs. coding boot camps aim for 12 week programs.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#225

I would love for more people to code and I would love for veterans for find work but .... My impression is those who excel at coding (like everything else) love doing it. So, I would expect the majority to fail. It's doesn't seem like a skill like riding a bike where you learn it once and then it's just this thing you can pull out whenever (or maybe it just takes longer to get to that point). My point is, whenever I…

Talent Is Overrated spends a considerable amount of time talking about this topic. Over the past few years, the more I began to reject the notion of passion being a prerequisite to growth, the more adapt I was at switching perspectives to continue to drive growth. There are a remarkable amount of times at work where I have zero passion for my current task, but I can surprise myself with a beautifully written solution.

If we remove the phrase passion from being a prerequisite to being a highly competent developer, we can begin to view this problem in a proper context. The issue is we're failing to adequately define how to go from being an apprentice through being a master developer. This gets even murkier when you consider job roles in organizations that do not care about this distinction, but we aught to do our best to define a general framework that anyone interested in could use and apply. We could look at finer art fields and see what principles we could apply. For instance, from music, I learned to love music by playing just difficult enough music to keep me interested, but not hard enough to get frustrated enough to quit. I never had personal teachers because my parents didn't have enough money, but I used my resources the best I could. There came a point after playing music for a number of years that the patterns started to emerge that I began asking the right questions and got lead into music theory. This happened a decade after playing, but within a few months my view of music was forever altered. I called it "just in time learning", and it's something I've tried to do with mentors of my own. There are quite a few topics in computer science that are better learned over time through rote memorization, but the part that I think we're failing to address is giving students a platform to build off of on their own. Every reputable fine art program makes extensive use of studio time where students are given ambitious projects with loosely defined parameters in conjunction with their theoretical courses. The supplement each other and provide the bedrock for a young artist to grow on.

What I'm failing to articulate is, passion is not mandatory to learn. In fact, I would say if used inappropriately, it can be destructive to a new learner of a skill. Once they hit their first brick wall and have no one to turn too, they might feel they aren't passionate enough and give up. When in reality, if they were given a different perspective, they might have easily overcome the challenge and moved on. Not every skill set can be sexy, and not every task can be passionate. The man that is responsible for tuning concert pianos with a live crowd are extremely talented, but most are not passionate about tuning pianos. We are looking at this as a problem with students, when in reality the problem is with the program and the teachers.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#226
post #3

Whether you believe code schools are good or bad (I lean somewhat towards good), I wonder if we have not fully learned the lesson from the rash several years ago of fly-by-night for-profit colleges preying on vets and providing substandard education and inflated job promises, all on the GI Bill's dime. I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again.

I'm from Wisconsin and am currently reading "Janesville: An American Story", which is about the city of Janesville, WI and what happened when the GM auto plant closed in 2008. A lot of subsidies went to retraining the unemployed factory workers because that's supposedly how you are supposed to treat factory closings. But it turns out that when you compare the salaries of the workers who went back to school (tech scho…

Unless the laid off workers are randomly assigned to training or finding other work there's a pretty serious selection bias that the people with the best prospects are the least likely seek training.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#227
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always baffles me when people say that algorithms aren't relevant to software development. It's like saying thermodynamics isn't relevant to engine design.

More like saying that knowing the atomic crystalline structures of metals isn't relevant to engine design.

Which it completely is, if you want to design a modern engine.

If you want to have an engine with 60s power, weight and fuel economy, then sure you don't need to know the science behind it. Just throw some parts together, and you'll get something that works.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like saying that knowing the atomic crystalline structures of metals isn't relevant to engine design.

Well, somebody better know the structure of the metals in use, or else you get turbine disks shattering jet engines and landing 1,000 yards away [1]. Just because it's not important to know every day doesn't mean you won't find challenging and important applications of undergraduate-level algorithm design. [1]: http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/dramat...

"Well, somebody better know the structure of the metals in use"

Somebody needs to know how to implement sorting algorithms too. It's just highly unlikely to be you.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#229

All the resources to learn coding are freely available. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to make a buck.

This is true, but in the same way as this:

"Anyone can be physically fit. Everything you need to know about diet and exercise is freely available."

In education as in fitness it often helps to have a guiding hand.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#230
post #3

Whether you believe code schools are good or bad (I lean somewhat towards good), I wonder if we have not fully learned the lesson from the rash several years ago of fly-by-night for-profit colleges preying on vets and providing substandard education and inflated job promises, all on the GI Bill's dime. I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again.

There are VA-approved schools, as the article notes: https://operationcode.org/code_schools

> Some code schools do accept GI Bill benefits — longer-standing ones that have made it through State Approving Agencies, which work on behalf of the Department of Veterans Affairs to decide which programs can use GI Bill money.

So it can be done, and responsibly. I guess the only thing that's left is to increase the number of seats at VA approved schools.

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