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Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

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Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#191
There are already more coders than are needed. What there aren't enough of are leaders who are smart enough to recognize this.

I cringe at the thought that software engineering could become a "blue collar" profession.

Systems have become needlessly over-complicated and this is driving an increase in demand for coders.

As companies hire more coders; their systems get more features but they also grow in complexity (particularly if they hire junior coders). Non-technical managers are often not knowledgeable enough about programming/architecture to see that their systems are more complicated than they need to be and never bother to rein-in the complexity.

So basically as the complexity increases and becomes harder to manage, companies hire more coders but those coders are a double-edged sword because whilst helping to manage existing complexity, they also add new complexity on the side.

Unlike with most other professions, in software development/engineering, there is no limit as to how many people you can throw at a problem; that's because there is no limit to system complexity and richness of features but the law of diminishing returns still applies.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#192
post #21

I don't see the need for Code Schools. Folks can learn almost anything using the resources of the internet. Provide the vets with books on coding for a specialized curriculum for fee and give them some specialized job prep. Many places would love to hire Vets.

I teach in a coding school and while there are tons of good contents out there they would hit a brick wall quite soon. We mentor them, we are there 8 hours a day + all day on slack to answer their questions. We run cognitive apprenticeship sessions (live coding) twice a week. We require them to demo what they've learned each Friday and many more nuances that simply browsing MDN won't give you.

In short, good coding schools are a shortcut to being a junior developer. They will learn how to learn to code.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#193
post #100

I have a couple thoughts on this subject as it directly applies to me. In many ways the G.I Bill is a coupon thats worth up to $22,000/year + (monthly cost of rent for every month in school). Many vets end up using the GI Bill just for the monthly rent check (for SF its like 4k/mo). I am a strong believer in freedom of choice and personal responsibility. If I earned that GI Bill i should be able to spend it where I s…

From a civilian perspective, hypothetically speaking, why should we continue to fund the GI Bill if it's just going to be wasted? In a world where too many of the veterans get fleeced and get nothing for the money it would be rational for the rest of us to cut that benefit, perhaps replacing it with nothing or with a difference benefit like a larger pension. Personal responsibility is important but it doesn't exist i…

Vet here, currently in my junior year of a CS major. I personally view the GI Bill as similar to a lot of other affirmative action programs - the people who are best-equipped to take advantage of the programs are the least needy.

I did a term in the Marines as a radio tech for air traffic control. I did all of it in Yuma, AZ. No deployments, not even a float on a ship. I got out with a job offer in hand to work at Intel as a microscope tech. Intel offers to pay for tuition, but I get $22k in BAH and a book stipend per year on top of free tuition with the GI Bill, so it's a better deal for me to make Uncle Sam pay for it. My SO is a nurse, so she makes good money as well.

I'm fulfilling my end of the bargain, I guess; I've kept pretty close to a 4.0 GPA while working full-time. But when John Q. Taxpayer thinks of a veteran going to college on the GI Bill, he probably doesn't think of a POG[1] radio tech whose parents are both affluent college grads. He thinks of some grunt who lived in the dirt and got shot at in Afghanistan and is probably the first person in his family to go to college.

The latter tend not to use their benefits at all, use them as another form of welfare like the parent poster mentioned, (take some fluffy bullshit classes and pocket the BAH) or get scammed by some shitty for-profit institution.

Result: Those who use the benefits tend to be those who were already going to go to college and do well anyway. Of course, if you threaten to canc the benefits, you're going to get a bunch of very angry veterans and affiliated people who will yell at you for ripping away that poor grunt's chance to be the first kid in his family to go to college. Never mind the fact that the poor grunt got suckered by fucking DeVry or just didn't go at all.

[1] Personnel Other than Grunt.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#194
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the ASVAB tests are precisely my point. They are rapid-fire multiple choice questions asking the taker to bounce between subjects. Doing well in that sort of test means nothing to the standard undergrad assignment of "pick a topic and write a 10-page paper". I once spent an hour explaining IRAC style to a former special forces soldier. Everything he had ever done in the armed forces was to prove that he knew mate…

A special forces guy isn't the best example of someone with the kind of training I'm talking about. I mentioned the asvabs not as a comparison to writing a paper, but to note there is a bar to get into the highly technical jobs. Similar to the bar created by things like minimum SAT scores for some schools. Talk to an ex military person that had a highly technical job that required 6+ months of military tech school. T…

My only experience with anyone from a SOF background comes from a coworker who is a mechanical engineer but I would think that someone from a special forces background would actually be a fairly good example.

It might not require the kind of very technical training that say Navy nuke school does, but assuming sandworm was talking about proper "special forces", as in Army SF, most of those guys tend to be older, more mature soldiers and I believe all Army SF candidates have to take the DLAB and then attend language school for 6+ months. I would have assumed that sort of environment would actually translate fairly well to undergrad.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#195
post #177
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is the disdain?

The professors' contempt of computers? In a computer science department? I mean, it wasn't math I was majoring in ...

Originally CS was a branch of math, then the issue was confused because many places taught software engineering in CS departments, and finally we begane to settle on some sane terminology.

What I think they now commonly mean:

* CS is a branch of math

* the art of building software is engineering

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#196
post #3

Whether you believe code schools are good or bad (I lean somewhat towards good), I wonder if we have not fully learned the lesson from the rash several years ago of fly-by-night for-profit colleges preying on vets and providing substandard education and inflated job promises, all on the GI Bill's dime. I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again.

> I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again. This is dead on. I am a veteran currently going back to school for an engineering degree on the GI bill. When I got out of the service I didn't even consider going back to school, and just taught myself how to code and started working as a web developer. Once I made it to the point of working with other software en…

i agree that we need more engineers. but a degree is basically just a proof that you can learn. the real learning begins when you start to work.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#197

I would love for more people to code and I would love for veterans for find work but .... My impression is those who excel at coding (like everything else) love doing it. So, I would expect the majority to fail. It's doesn't seem like a skill like riding a bike where you learn it once and then it's just this thing you can pull out whenever (or maybe it just takes longer to get to that point). My point is, whenever I…

I'd suggest most people who excel at bike riding approach it with the same enthusiasm and drive as you attribute to the programmers who excel (to your credit, you mention "everything else" is the same, which would include cycling until you pick it out as an anecdote at the end of the paragraph) and that's before achieving a level where they can actually make money on their cycling ability.

To run with your analogy though: if programming were like riding a bike, that could do great things for society. There would be a significant portion of the working population that understood the idea of what their computers were made to do and improve their ability ability to leverage these machines to assist them in achieving their tasks even more efficiently. That would be the equivalent to the majority of people who can ride a bike and could use that skill to improve their mobility while saving money for themselves and their local society, improving health,..., reaping all of those benefits that can be achieved from knowing how to ride a bike even if most people who can ride a bike will never be able to live off of their bike riding ability.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#198
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weirdly they seem to ask the CS fundamentals that aren't as relevant (algorithms) and skip those that are (e.g. the relational model, data structures (uses of), type theory, formal grammar). I wouldn't say that you don't need it, but I would say that most companies ask about the wrong bits.

It always baffles me when people say that algorithms aren't relevant to software development. It's like saying thermodynamics isn't relevant to engine design.

Knowing specific algorithms is irrelevant to most modern software development because for any algorithm that's common enough for a "standard" developer to remember you'd be expected to use a pre-existing implementation.

If you want to sort a list, balance a tree, multiply a matrix or find the shortest/cheapest path in a graph, you should use a library that already does that and is reasonably tested and optimized, certainly more than whatever you'd write today. Most likely you shouldn't even get to choose which algorithm to use for that, and if you need to then the choice should be based not on the O() measures you might remember but on benchmarking, since the constant factor often dominates.

I have seen quite a few very large systems in which the most complicated algorithm actually implemented in the system is a set of branching if-then conditionals for some business logic. There's no custom data structure traversal - yes, it needs some data processed, but all the algorithms for that are in the DB implementation and "do X for all selected items" is literally the deepest level of iteration anywhere in the system. There's cryptography, but that's in a separate library made by someone else. There's network algorithms with state in them, but that's managed by a separate layer.

In such data processing systems all the development does is glue code that specifies what exactly should be done, but all the how part (e.g. the algorithms) is already implemented by someone else and is reused.

There are fields and apps (parts of them) that are algorithm-heavy; for example, even simple games tend to pack a lot of interesting algorithms (but even there much of that is now handled by standard libraries/frameworks). But most developers don't work on that, the majority of software dev work is cookie-cutter data processing apps where all the algorithms are out of your scope.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#199

There are already more coders than are needed. What there aren't enough of are leaders who are smart enough to recognize this. I cringe at the thought that software engineering could become a "blue collar" profession. Systems have become needlessly over-complicated and this is driving an increase in demand for coders. As companies hire more coders; their systems get more features but they also grow in complexity (par…

So you're taking a dubious theory (tech-debt => hire juniors => more tech-debt, repeat), applying it industry-wide and then using it as an argument against JUST VETERANS from pursuing a career-change into software?

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#200
Learn to code requires time. From my experience, after basic education (e.g. before starting High School), with 6 hours per week, during 6 months (144 hours), with a teacher and a easy language (e.g. BASIC or Python) you can accomplish students to have a sound base, so more advanced programming can be put on top of that afterwards. The point of few hours per week is because of the brain requiring time for assimilating knowledge. I.e. unless you have some basis, e.g. knowing a previous computer language, or some similar experience, pushing full-time for learning programming would burn the student.

In addition to the "learn to code", there is the case of "knowing to code, but learning new stuff", which can be frustrating, too, if not focused properly. E.g. computer languages work pretty much the same for number computations, algorithms on data (lists, graphs, trees, etc.), so if you know the language X, you'll be able to move quickly to language Y. The problem is when "moving from X to Y" involves more than algorithmics: e.g. if Y involves computer graphics, and you had no previous computer graphics experience, the handicap would be learning computer graphics, not the language Y. Another example, if you're an experienced C/C++ programmer you can take easily on Node.js server stuff, but not on web-client programming, not because of Javascript, but because of requiring learning many additional elements (DOM, CSS, etc.).

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