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Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

blogs.law.harvard.edu

61–70 of 79 posts

Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#61
post #55
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"That the current salaries of recent college graduates represent their probable average output over their lifetime." It doesn't represent that at all. It is saying that the value due to education can be roughly approximated by the starting salary. The gains from there are then more based on experience/work, not the education. Of course, you ignore the money made while you would have been in school. You also ignore th…

And it [a college degree] is an advantage again if you need to switch careers. (Which is becoming very common.) But where's the educational correlation between a degree in a specific discipline and a change to what is presumably a different discipline? If I have a degree in Literature, I'm an editor at a publishing firm, and I get fired and then get a job in, say, the biological sciences, how is my degree intrinsical…

You've put your finger on an important issue. For the person with a degree, there is an advantage in passing that barrier to entry. But why is that barrier to entry there?

From the point of view of the employer, a degree indicates that the possessor has, among other things, a certain level of intelligence, literacy (not a small deal in a country where over half the country is functionally illiterate!), experience in learning, general background, work ethic, and socio-economic status. It is therefore a somewhat useful filter to apply for many professions.

Of course most of those traits have nothing to do with what you actually learned in university. And there certainly are plenty of successful people with all of those traits who did not bother with university. So even though I believe that for most people, education is worthwhile to that person, I'm far less certain that society as a whole benefits much from all of the money spent on higher education. (And I become even less certain when I look at how wasteful the process has become. Costs have been going up faster than inflation for decades, with no apparent reason than that everyone in the process knows that they are free to raise costs by that much, and it is always easier to spend more money than it is to spend less.)

Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#64

I think HN has missed one of Greenspun's points - that we always talk about "investing in our children's future" but never actually consider whether the investment (usually of public money, i.e. tax dollars for K-12, then crushing debt from the parents for college) actually stands the test of financial sense.

Rather, I would say HN is calling Greenspun on the point that "investing in our children's future" shouldn't be treated as an individaul economic decision but rather as a social decision.

For the individual trying to educate their children, the motivator has historically been the effort to move up in social class but by extension, it's an effort to give the children a richer and more diverse life with more economic opportunity being only a fraction of this. But education has also traditionally been a priority for society rather than simply individuals. Theoretically, the US as a whole benefits if tomorrow more-skilled US workers are paid the same amount for doing the same job than less-skilled US workers were doing yesterday. This works better in practice if we're talking about either auto workers or programmers rather than about fast food workers.

Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#65
I went to public schools through high school and then, on scholarship, to the local public university. I doubt my family "invested" more than $10k in my entire education. Whatever it cost, it's certainly repaid itself many times over since then.

The great thing about coding for a living is that most companies care more about what you can do than the name on your diploma.

Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#66
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but they have free healthcare (at least 400$/month worth), live in miserable living conditions (3 roommates in a basement), and have 0 savings. And, apparently they walk naked. Do not forget to add taxes. And waterbill. And trashbill. And phonebill. My observations are in total correspondence with Daniel Kanemann's research: For good life in USA you need $60K/year - more will not make you happier, less will make…

3 roommates in a basement is only miserable living conditions when compared to the McMansions that people are moving into now. My dad grew up in a 3rd world country. His family would be considered upper-class within their city, and yet they had 10 children crammed into a couple rooms, geckos in their living spaces, and mosquito nets to keep away the malaria. And they got bombed out of their home by the Americans, and…

> 3 roommates in a basement is only miserable living conditions when compared to the McMansions that people are moving into now.

Unless you are applying the term 'McMansions' to include a single person living in a studio apartment or a 1-bedroom apartment (or even a couple living in a 2-bedroom apartment), then I suggest you revisit that statement. It's obviously not abject poverty, but to say that the only people that would consider your living conditions to be something that couldn't deal with must therefore be living in 'McMansions' is a bit of an overstatement.

Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#67
post #29
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's showing that things are screwed up. We're spending too much on education for what we are getting in return. He's claiming that the system is wholly inefficient. He's just extending that to the health care system in that one-liner. More generally: "For the amount of money that we are putting into , we should be getting more value out of it."

The article is basically claiming that if a doctor earns $100k a year, and costs, say, $1m in funds to be able to complete his or her extended studies (that take many years), then creating that doctor is not a worthwhile investment for parents or for society. That's wrong on so many levels that I won't even bother to argue with it.

How many doctors are unemployed and living with their parents?

Don't take the statement about hospitals and doctors and try to combine it with the statements about the education system. The former was just a jab at the healthcare system, the later is a jab at spending gobs of money just to end up with people that aren't doing much of anything with their education. Doctors that go out and do something with their education (i.e. work as a doctor) aren't included in that.

Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#68
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but they have free healthcare (at least 400$/month worth), live in miserable living conditions (3 roommates in a basement), and have 0 savings. And, apparently they walk naked. Do not forget to add taxes. And waterbill. And trashbill. And phonebill. My observations are in total correspondence with Daniel Kanemann's research: For good life in USA you need $60K/year - more will not make you happier, less will make…

3 roommates in a basement is only miserable living conditions when compared to the McMansions that people are moving into now. My dad grew up in a 3rd world country. His family would be considered upper-class within their city, and yet they had 10 children crammed into a couple rooms, geckos in their living spaces, and mosquito nets to keep away the malaria. And they got bombed out of their home by the Americans, and…

> I suspect that if he were to run the same experiment in Vanuatu - supposedly the happiest place on earth - he'd find that you need roughly $5K/year for the good life. That's just slightly over their per-capita GDP.

You seem to be ignoring though, that the cost of living is different between the two places (I'm assuming that both of those dollar amounts are in US dollars).

Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#69

The article pretends - That the current salaries of recent college graduates represent their probable average output over their lifetime. This is absurd for reasons that I hope I don't need to explain to all you startup founders. - That the salary of a graduate is a total representation of that person's value to society (and, transitively, of their education). This is wrong even if you think the total value of an edu…

I made this point under another parent: $300k includes opportunity cost. Adding four years' salary (even with only a high school diploma) to four years' $40k tuition and living expenses, $300k doesn't seem so farfetched. Of course, that definition of opportunity cost neglects the pleasures (both intellectual and hedonistic) of spending four years on a campus rather than a job site.

Most colleges do not have $40k in tuition, and most people would not be able to make $50k at eighteen years old without a college degree. That's my point. The actual average cost of college is probably overstated by a factor of two.

Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#70

I think HN has missed one of Greenspun's points - that we always talk about "investing in our children's future" but never actually consider whether the investment (usually of public money, i.e. tax dollars for K-12, then crushing debt from the parents for college) actually stands the test of financial sense.

I'm calling Greenspun on the fact that, if you want to make the argument that the investment is bad, using ridiculously overstated made up numbers is not an honest way to do it.
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