Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#281

Post by Mz » Fri, May 05, 2017, 7:26 PM UTC

tn135 wrote: post #279

Mz wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was not advocating for protectionist measures. People who had well paid manufacturing jobs were not in the bottom 20%. Increases in quality of life of the bottom 20% is irrelevant to the point that manufacturing jobs have seriously declined and this has hurt a large segment of the population. I don't know nor care what your agenda is, but putting on blinders to obvious and undeniable facts in no way helps your case…

I have no agenda and I am genuine in my efforts to understand the counter viewpoint. It is just that I am unable to see the evidence anywhere and I can not understand the love of low end worthless manufacturing jobs. You are right only if you see things in isolation but society can not be seen that way. For example my grandpa grew his own organic food and died at the age of 45 by choking on Asthma (no medical care).…

Historically, manufacturing jobs paid quite well while generally not requiring expensive education and training beforehand to get hired. I do not understand why you perceive them to be low end and worthless.

Further, you dismissing Detroit as evidence of a large scale trend and comparing it to me saying a single bakery failed while then citing your father and grandfather as evidence for your point of view goes well beyond ironic.

I also see things as interconnected and complicated, yet I am finding you incredibly difficult to engage. Your tactics look an awful lot like bad faith arguments. Maybe you just don't see the conflict inherent in your own maneuvering. Lots of people don't. But you are being incredibly contradictory here.

Best.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#282

Post by dmix » Fri, May 05, 2017, 10:25 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #277

dmix wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The inequality that you see today wasn't caused by globalism, but by tax cuts on the very rich Source? Only a minority of companies in the US even have executives that get the much maligned high pay and bonuses in the last decade or so. What about the massive percentage of wealth that didn't fall into this category? They may have gain significantly from globalism but that was hardly the result of US tax policy alon…

I actually have a couple of sources for this :). Apologies for the late reply, I also have a day job ;) I would recommend Krugman's Conscience of a Liberal for an entertaining read. He referenced another book, aptly called Inequality[1], which I'm currently going through. Its a little more academic prose so its not something I can finish quickly (in short, its not an entertaining read...not that all books have to be…

Thanks for the extended reply. I'll read this during the weekend and get back to you.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#283

Post by rhizome » Fri, May 05, 2017, 10:41 PM UTC

saimiam wrote: post #132

rhizome wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What skills of yours do you think could become moot?

Given some oversight and runway, any programming skills I have can be done by someone else in a low cost location. Nothing I do or invent is exceptionally hard. That is probably best reserved for the pure sciences. This makes my creativity/skills moot. My only truly innate talent is my ability to cogently communicate with my local peers better than someone who lives elsewhere. Even that is becoming irrelevant because…

any programming skills I have can be done by someone else in a low cost location

How do you figure that 30+ years of outsourcing has not yet proven your point?

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#284

Post by nerfhammer » Sat, May 06, 2017, 12:08 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #280

nerfhammer wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why, again, are manufacturing jobs the one type of job we're always supposed to be maximize, even relative to the pool of all other jobs? Is there more or less total employment, and does that matter less than manufacturing employment alone? re: housing and college costs, I don't think that has much to do with manufacturing jobs in particular.

> Why, again, are manufacturing jobs the one type of job we're always supposed to be maximize, even relative to the pool of all other jobs? Because the other major alternatives are (a) service jobs that are a zero sum game of people inside the same country of circle-servicing one another, (b) jobs like scientist, software developer, etc, that by their nature require few people so wont be increasing anytime soon eithe…

I am not thoroughly convinced that non-physical labor jobs are zero sum, necessarily shrinking and/or reduce other employment. Why should I believe that? Can you cite any evidence to this effect?

Furthermore, if white collar jobs are "shrinking" means they should be irrelevant, manufacturing jobs are shrinking means they should be lamented?

Lastly, what if increasing automation means that manufacturing jobs will inevitably go away regardless of how anyone feels about it or complains about it? What do you propose to stop that? Manufacturing output of the US has consistently increased despite any variance in the amount of people it employs or the state of the rest of the economy.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#285

Post by coldtea » Sat, May 06, 2017, 12:36 PM UTC

nerfhammer wrote: post #284

coldtea wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why, again, are manufacturing jobs the one type of job we're always supposed to be maximize, even relative to the pool of all other jobs? Because the other major alternatives are (a) service jobs that are a zero sum game of people inside the same country of circle-servicing one another, (b) jobs like scientist, software developer, etc, that by their nature require few people so wont be increasing anytime soon eithe…

I am not thoroughly convinced that non-physical labor jobs are zero sum, necessarily shrinking and/or reduce other employment. Why should I believe that? Can you cite any evidence to this effect? Furthermore, if white collar jobs are "shrinking" means they should be irrelevant, manufacturing jobs are shrinking means they should be lamented? Lastly, what if increasing automation means that manufacturing jobs will inev…

>Lastly, what if increasing automation means that manufacturing jobs will inevitably go away regardless of how anyone feels about it or complains about it? What do you propose to stop that?

I propose a society where mankind DECIDES about what kind of jobs it wants to have (or none if they please so), and they are not dictated to it about the mere availability of some technology.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#286

Post by jliptzin » Sat, May 06, 2017, 2:49 PM UTC

danderino wrote: post #260

jliptzin wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically what happens when capitalism is allowed to run wild. Massive industries consolidate into a few major players who have immense power over their workers. In this case, manufacturers realized that it's more economical to manufacture in China than in the US so that's what they've been doing. Simple economics. They owe nothing to the workers, only the shareholders. The manufacturing centers of the Americ…

> In this case, manufacturers realized that it's more economical to manufacture in China than in the US so that's what they've been doing. Simple economics. This is absolutely a good thing. Why would you encourage inefficient trade? Are Americans somehow more deserving of jobs than Chinese ones?

No of course not. I don't want to encourage inefficient trade. But what should we do about entire swaths of people completely out of work?

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#287

Post by erichocean » Mon, May 08, 2017, 12:09 AM UTC

david-cako wrote: post #34

ryanmarsh wrote: post #9

> Cook told "60 Minutes” in 2015. “I mean, you can take every tool and die maker in the United States and probably put them in a room that we’re currently sitting in. In China, you would have to have multiple football fields.” In that interview he also said that the jobs weren't coming back. This is one of the most powerful statements uttered on American labor and employment trends in recent memory. I have shared thi…

What's the answer? Protectionism? That's the thing I don't get, so many people will advocate "fewer regulations", yet are perfectly content with prohibitive tariffs from the place that allows people living in section 8 to afford iPhones. You're 100% right, but i just don't see a good answer other than coming to terms with the fact that cheap labour overseas and automation WILL back us into UBI in the very near future…

> What's the answer? Protectionism?

That's literally what China does, and it seems to be working for them. YMMV.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#288

Post by self-diversity » Mon, May 08, 2017, 7:50 PM UTC

tmsldd wrote: post #22

self-diversity wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Viewing the investment as insignificant because the investor has more money is a seriously foolish perspective that ought to be fought against instead of expressed

It is a valid point of view. Although perspective and proportionality are equally valid as well.. Apple invest in anyone else but themselves.

It is a point of view that can only be held by people who feel like their opinions on how Apple should spend its money are valid, which is utterly ridiculous in every way that isn't imaginary.