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Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

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Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#41

Post by dmix »

philip1209 wrote: post #29
jcoffland wrote: post #10

All the resources to learn coding are freely available. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to make a buck.

I disagree. - It takes time to make high-quality resources. Teaching is a real job. - Asking for money can decrease churn (see: Sunk Cost Fallacy) - Programs that include synchronous mentoring cost money, but might be more effective

Those are good points. I would personally narrow it down to the personality type of the individual. I personally do much better self-learning than in a class room. I taught myself how to program after dropping out of business school and it was the best choice I've ever made.

I have a feeling this dichotomy (between self-learning vs classrooms) will be especially true for coding far more often than most subjects. Also anecdotally I found a part-time university course in english/writing to be the opposite of my experience vs learning coding.

That would really be the difference in whether or not I recommended someone down a particular path. But I also believe this is what makes someone a good developer - even outside of the learning experience. Basically your interest and motivation in the subject outside of formal settings. Which drives talented devs towards OSS projects and learning new languages.

Although not everyone has to be above average at their jobs to be functional. There are plenty of BigCo programming jobs where you could be generally disinterested in off hours and still be of value to the organization (see: I've met a number of Java/C++ devs who would fit this category who work in big teams and are happy/functional). Those people would probably be better suited for coding schools. And would probably be a large percentage of those leaving the military for retraining, so I support the OPs mission.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#42

Post by CamperBob2 »

However, I find your insult to Trump voters gratuitous and unnecessary.

Sorry, I disagree. It's time to start calling out these people and holding them responsible for their actions, which affect us all.

Voting for a demagogue needs to carry a heavy social cost, or nothing will change.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#43

Post by scott00 »

jxcole wrote: post #25
killjoywashere wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there is a vast difference between being alone in a room, and being in a room full of people who are all trying to learn the same thing.

But what you're talking about is more like a club for new coders (which is a good idea). This guy was specifically looking for coding schools, which I assume are online only (so no classroom atmosphere).

Many (most?) coding bootcamps are conducted in person.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#44

Post by liquidise »

jlarocco wrote: post #15

"Coding schools" are a sham, and I'm glad they're not covered by the GI Bill. There's nothing stopping these veterans from going to a regular university, college, or community college and getting a real degree in computer science, software engineering, or a related field.

College costs more, takes longer and in many cases has a more selective acceptance process. To state that "there's nothing stopping" them from going back to school is a totally unsubstantiated claim that casually dismisses the circumstances of people and their families.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#45

Post by dmix »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #42

However, I find your insult to Trump voters gratuitous and unnecessary. Sorry, I disagree. It's time to start calling out these people and holding them responsible for their actions, which affect us all. Voting for a demagogue needs to carry a heavy social cost, or nothing will change.

> Voting for a demagogue needs to carry a heavy social cost, or nothing will change.

To me this means anyone who found either top US candidate as a viable option, so am I supposed to dismiss the majority of Americans merely because they voted? Personally this was an off-topic and non-relevant aside that served no purpose but to start flamewars. Politics is a mind-killer.

Not to mention hardly everyone who visits HN is even from the US and those outside of it (in western countries who have experienced stable/functional political systems) are very likely looking at the whole thing as a sidehow rather than who one voted for as some deep analogous reference to the topic at hand.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#46

Post by brianwawok »

kasey_junk wrote: post #24
brianwawok wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 4 year college program didn't teach me to code, what makes you think a 2 year program could? I learned how to write my own linked list however..

You are being downvoted I suspect because people are assuming you mean it's not possible to learn to code in 2 years, when what I suspect you mean is "why waste resources on poorly planned school curriculum regardless of timing when other options (such as the apprentice model) are available"

Yes exactly. I learned tons in college. Still not enough to make my own crud app.

In that way, bootcamps do a better job. If we are doing a 2 year turbo degree, they could learn a lot from boot camps.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#47

Post by orik »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #42

However, I find your insult to Trump voters gratuitous and unnecessary. Sorry, I disagree. It's time to start calling out these people and holding them responsible for their actions, which affect us all. Voting for a demagogue needs to carry a heavy social cost, or nothing will change.

How dare half the nation have a different political opinion than I! It's time we put their feet to the fire! /s

HN is a great place to talk tech, startups and entrepreneurship. However I'm not really interested in HN's thoughts on policy, policy making, or governance. I'd rather discuss these things who study them, are in those fields, on a forum expressly for that purpose.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#48

Post by Jach »

jcoffland wrote: post #10

All the resources to learn coding are freely available. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to make a buck.

Trying to make a buck isn't bad. But I also repeat to people that learning this stuff is free. I think it's my obligation to repeat it to people so that they don't get taken advantage of by people trying to make a buck. You can learn it all for free, the only 'cost' is time, which varies wildly with or without paid guidance. It's ok to be thrifty, even "cheap", when it comes to learning, and for coding especially the best resources tend to be free.

For guidance, there's a literal industry of practicing programmers who pay it forward all the time with source code plus guidance on IRC/skype/email/HN/blogs/etc.etc. Desire to actually learn is the key thing, and while paying someone can help keep your education progress on track even in the face of disinterest (college courses you hate but must pass), it's no substitute for internal motivation. (Edit: a sibling comment does note the sometimes paying can actually spark internal motivation. Paying for things can be worth it, but it isn't necessary.)

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#49

Post by sundvor »

jcoffland wrote: post #10

All the resources to learn coding are freely available. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to make a buck.

When transitioning from two decades of mainly Coldfusion (mvc) and some Php to C# last year I spent a few hundred dollars on Pluralsight. Best money I ever spent. SOLID, the full asp.net framework, CQRS, a bunch of common patterns, etc etc.

I feel like I've learned more in the last 18 months than I did in the decade that preceded them. It has totally rekindled my childhood passion for programming (Vic20/C64 basic, Amiga assembly).

I'm a bit ashamed by how far I had fallen behind, but at the same time it shows it might not be too late for someone who got too comfortable until reality hit him in the face.

Quality content is really, really important. So is finding a great mentor. And also other sources of inspiration like DotNetRocks, and reading He every day.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#50

Post by aphextron »

polpo wrote: post #3

Whether you believe code schools are good or bad (I lean somewhat towards good), I wonder if we have not fully learned the lesson from the rash several years ago of fly-by-night for-profit colleges preying on vets and providing substandard education and inflated job promises, all on the GI Bill's dime. I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again.

> I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again.

This is dead on. I am a veteran currently going back to school for an engineering degree on the GI bill. When I got out of the service I didn't even consider going back to school, and just taught myself how to code and started working as a web developer. Once I made it to the point of working with other software engineers with formal educations in a large firm though, I realized the depths of my ignorance. I hit a wall that no amount of javascript bootcamps or rails tutorials could ever get me past. The fundamental knowledge of math and science that separates engineers from 'coders'.

I think the VA is absolutely doing the right thing here by not allowing code schools to take advantage of GI bill money. The industry does not need more coders, it needs more engineers. If these schools were legitimate they would be working in connection with established universities to provide accelerated ABET accredited degrees. You'll notice that the article posted mentioned nothing of the actual long term success rates of these programs, either.

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