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Ask HN: Is it a waste of time to teach yourself data science without a degree?

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Re: Ask HN: Is it a waste of time to teach yourself data science without a degree?

#61
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with parts of both statements. On one hand, if you're looking to seriously get into data science then it's going to be hard to even get interviews with companies that are looking for real data scientists without those pieces of paper (diplomas). On the other hand, I agree that with enough dedication and effort you can teach yourself anything (after all, university is largely just you teaching yourself with th…

My company is hiring data scientists all the time. Nobody looks at the education section of the resume of the candidates we get. We look at what the person has actually done, and then we interview to make sure the resume wasn't filled with lies about that experience.

That has been my experience as well. Not a single person has ever asked me "what's your degree", but everyone looks at my projects and past work.

Re: Ask HN: Is it a waste of time to teach yourself data science without a degree?

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite possible that you can teach yourself a lot of the relevant background. If you read David Barber's book cover to cover and do all the problems, that's a machine learning masters' course covered. But the problem is that you're competing against job applicants who already have a degree in machine learning. So it will often be the case that you're lucky to make it past an initial HR screen. If they want to int…

Hah, I couldn't read that book when I was taking his class, it's not likely I'll start now. However, to your point, "you can't teach yourself" and "you can't get a job just by reading a book" aren't the same thing. I'm not so sure you can't get a job by teaching yourself machine learning and making your own self-driving toy car or some other fun project, though.

If someone can't understand barber, I don't think they've taught themselves machine learning. I think they've taught themselves to plug data into an off-the-shelf model.

Re: Ask HN: Is it a waste of time to teach yourself data science without a degree?

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this sounds rational, I don't think that's how it works in most cases. Those who do the hiring usually prefer covering themselves by hiring someone with a degree rather than having to explain how they hired you because you made millions to someone else in the past. Also while we understand the hacker culture, many only understand "degree > job", they can't comprehend why you don't have a degree if you are so go…

Depends a lot on the company. I know many successful programmers without a CS degree, for example.

That's exactly the problem, though: they're, I assume, programmers, not "data scientists". The notion that you can learn to program on your own and have the self-education result in a comparable (or better) effects than attending classes is widely accepted. I don't see the same attitude towards data scientists, which is what I think the OP is asking about.

Re: Ask HN: Is it a waste of time to teach yourself data science without a degree?

#64
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? I don't know if I'm good, but I think I'm at least a "decent" programmer and I have a solid grasp of ML and Stats concepts and I've had absolutely no luck getting interviews, much less call backs for data science jobs.

If only you were willing to work in Canada :P.

Have you seen the job listings for data scientists in Canada? It's paltry even here in Toronto compared to parts of the U.S. like SF which have a fraction of the population. Last time I checked, when I searched Data Scientist in SF there were 3000+ listings while in Toronto there maybe a little over a hundred.

And of the few job listings I've seen, most have high standards (PhD or min. Masters, x years of experience) with old companies (banks, car companies).

What's funny is that a lot of people in my circle in Canada are actually doing work for companies outside of the country (U.S., China...)

Re: Ask HN: Is it a waste of time to teach yourself data science without a degree?

#65

A good programmer with even just a high level overview of ML and Stats concepts would be an incredibly valuable asset to a data science team. Most ML people are academics who tend to not have good software engineering skills, finding people who master both domains is really hard. Also to add to that most of the work in ML is feature engineering, data cleaning, testing and building pipelines which all require a good s…

I'm currently working through Andrew Ng's ML course on Coursera. It's definitely high-level (though a fantastic overview of the fundamentals), and I plan to take something a little more mathematically rigorous at some point, but I'll probably want to take some refresher courses in Linear Algebra and calc before doing so.

I'm not trying to learn about ML for purposes of employment, It's somewhat relevant to my current job, and I may have some interest in using it on my personal projects. But mostly I'm just learning for the 'fun' of it :)

I don't have the time, money, or inclination to pursue a MS in data science atm (My current 'formal' education consists of a BS in Comp Sci and an MBA), but I may go back to school when the kids are grown, more for personal edification than anything else, however. A big shift in career, from software engineer to 'data scientist (or whatever they call it)' is probably not possible at my advanced age (37).

Re: Ask HN: Is it a waste of time to teach yourself data science without a degree?

#66
post #51

(copied from answer to another similar question.) Companies are looking for what you as a candidate can do for them. Self-study or taking a class signals some level of "I tried to learn this thing." So that's a start. Even better is "I built X", where X is obviously based on skill you learned. In which case you can omit the class because you have proof of learning, not just trying to learn. Even better is "I provided…

This is great, however, the biggest roadblock might be the automated HR application scanning. As a victim of this, I'm back in school to finish my degree that I started 17 years ago.

How is it going? How do you do it?

I'm in a similar position right now, but every time I think about being subject to the bureaucracy again I shudder and choose to write interesting blog posts instead... It's not about the costs or the time; I feel like my dignity as a professional (and possibly even as a human being) would be threatened. It could be because of the way the higher education is set up in my country, though.

Re: Ask HN: Is it a waste of time to teach yourself data science without a degree?

#67
My experience has been that when it comes to the job market _knowing_ stuff is extremely valuable, but _having learnt_ stuff isn't very valuable, unless you have an excellent degree from a top tier university. What this implies is that you should select online study options based on how they contribute to your actual knowledge, rather than how they will appear to employers (in most cases, they will appear like nothing). Once you know enough, build a portfolio of projects to show what you know and look for a job based on that - if you really know how to get stuff done in the field you'll have many options to choose from.

Re: Ask HN: Is it a waste of time to teach yourself data science without a degree?

#68
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only you were willing to work in Canada :P.

Have you seen the job listings for data scientists in Canada? It's paltry even here in Toronto compared to parts of the U.S. like SF which have a fraction of the population. Last time I checked, when I searched Data Scientist in SF there were 3000+ listings while in Toronto there maybe a little over a hundred. And of the few job listings I've seen, most have high standards (PhD or min. Masters, x years of experience)…

I was speaking in context of the company i work for. You're right but we're getting there.

Re: Ask HN: Is it a waste of time to teach yourself data science without a degree?

#69
To hit a target, first you have to see it clearly. The term "Data Science" covers a broad collection of jobs, from statistician to machine learning/pattern recognition/AI expert to DBA to business analyst to visualization/animation expert to cloud/cluster/Hadoop expert to general data wrangler.

The skills required for each DS role vary a lot. I wouldn't expect a cloud expert to have learned about the Hadoop stack or HPC workflows in school, at least not to a useful degree. The same goes for DBA or business analyst or data wrangler.

But statistics and ML lie at the other end of the spectrum. These roles require a hierarchy of formal skills that are rarely mastered outside of college. They're expected to keep up with the research literature or formal techniques, which almost always requires the math skills of an engineer or mathematician.

Remember, HR everywhere is technically clueless. If management doesn't tell them the precise set of skills needed for the job, they'll minimize risk and ask for more expertise and experience than is needed -- usually in the form of excess degrees or prestige or buzzwords. The best cure for this is to bypass HR and go straight to a technical manager who knows what s/he wants. That's hardest at large corporations, who tend to outsource their HR needs to the lowest bidder.

At a smaller company, a lack of degree will matter less. If you can convince them you know what they need RIGHT NOW and can learn future material quickly, that's what they want to hear. (That's probably what the bosses of the startup did).

Or if you're targeting a specific project, then if you can show (e.g. via Kaggle or an online portfolio) that you clearly have the needed skills and you're not just a script kiddie, that speaks a lot louder than a mere degree (especially if it's over a decade old).

Re: Ask HN: Is it a waste of time to teach yourself data science without a degree?

#70
post #51

(copied from answer to another similar question.) Companies are looking for what you as a candidate can do for them. Self-study or taking a class signals some level of "I tried to learn this thing." So that's a start. Even better is "I built X", where X is obviously based on skill you learned. In which case you can omit the class because you have proof of learning, not just trying to learn. Even better is "I provided…

This is great, however, the biggest roadblock might be the automated HR application scanning. As a victim of this, I'm back in school to finish my degree that I started 17 years ago.

May I ask which degree was that?
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