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Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#261

Post by yelpisascam »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #9

> Cook told "60 Minutes” in 2015. “I mean, you can take every tool and die maker in the United States and probably put them in a room that we’re currently sitting in. In China, you would have to have multiple football fields.” In that interview he also said that the jobs weren't coming back. This is one of the most powerful statements uttered on American labor and employment trends in recent memory. I have shared thi…

I voted for Trump. Cheap labor is what has reached a tipping point and what building the wall represents in some aspects. I don't know a single Trump supporter who would have been surprised by that statement. But, anecdotes being what they are.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#262

Post by xaa »

pm90 wrote: post #199
xaa wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the dichotomy between historical fluke and market trends doesn't really exist. Historical flukes are market trends. On further thought, you're right about this. I was rather inarticulately trying to remark on the fact that the supposed "inevitability" of market trends is always used as an excuse to avoid pro-labor legislation, but never pro-business legislation. > I hardly see globalism as something that's detri…

> Yes and no. I think the gov't has been highly influential in ensuring the gains from it go to capital and that its negative effects on labor are not reined in. Globalization would have happened anyway but the govt's approach to it has resulted in more inequality and dislocation than was necessary. This is most certainly true. And I think dmix hit on a very important point when he mentioned that its hard for politic…

> I think dmix hit on a very important point when he mentioned that its hard for politicians to sell a future thats not all rosy and prosperous for everyone.

I couldn't find where he made that exact point, if he did, I would reply to it by saying that what politicians sell and what they actually do are two completely different things. Both sides of the aisle have been selling rosy futures and working towards the exact opposite for decades. I'd say that Bernie & Trump were evidence that the message "your future isn't all that rosy unless we change substantially" resonated this election.

dmix and I agree globalization is here to stay. I was just a little irritated by his implication that the way we need to respond is by "developing new industries" and "adapting to the global marketplace" and all that jargon. I'd say the S&P has adapted just fine to the global marketplace. The problem is that the median American is worse off anyway. Your second paragraph is apt about some potential solutions.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#263

Post by dilemma »

CPLX wrote: post #78
nickik wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people who make argument like yours simple sound like "ignore problem, everything will be fine". A company that does not move to cheaper labour will go bankroupt and a new all China company will simply take over. So you have unemployed anyway. The typical solution to this is that you start walling of these industries with tarrifs or to subsides. What you eventually have is a huge sector of the US economy that liv…

Not really. Germany and Switzerland have managed to maintain high wages and high standards of living in a globally competitive manufacturing sector. The idea that all this change is inevitable or impossible to avoid and we can't pay workers properly is just bullshit, it's the messaging of a multi-decade well financed public relations effort by people in the U.S. with a vested interest in making the public believe it.

Germany has the largest low wage sector in Europe. Switzerland doesn't have competitive manufacturing.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#264

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

lukas099 wrote: post #232
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure and in the cases where it is in our self-interest then go ahead, but the whole reason we've got this "populist uprising" is because people are looking around and seeing a lot things being done that aren't in their interest.

A change can be very bad for a group within a country, but better for the long-term self-interest of the country as a whole, though. If a globalization measure pushes a large number of Americans out of jobs temporarily, it could be the basis of such a "populist uprise", but couldn't it be better for the country as a whole if it opens up new areas for economic growth, even on a purely self-interested level? And couldn…

You know it's strange because I can only ever find people arguing this when they know they won't be the ones to be out of a job. Aka this forum is pretty open to the idea of people being displaced but go check out some of the threads here about H1Bs, there's a lot of vehement opposition there. Or for a hypothetical, imagine we were able to import or outsource our politicians to cheaper politicians in India. How quickly do you think that market would be closed off? Yet we abstract ourselves away from the problem and declare that maybe if all these people suffer we'll be better off for it in the end. In society we make those tradeoffs, that's reality but once we start sacrificing more and larger groups surely we come to a point where we realize maybe it's not actually worth it?

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#265

Post by wonderbread23 »

jlebrech wrote: post #17
mattnewton wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't doubt Trump will rush to claim credit, Apple has been looking at ways it can hedge against China and get "Made in America" gravitas for a long time, and steadily experimenting on that front with things like the Mac Pro.

it was a joke, i thought people would have like that.

Stick to Reddit. A lot of people come here to avoid pathetic circle jerk humor.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#266

Post by [deleted] »

linkregister wrote: post #231
sbov wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many would consider that unelected. I'm sure you draw the line somewhere too: I doubt you consider every government employee elected just because you can draw a chain of responsibility back to some elected official.

Please don't backpedal by going into the definition of the word. The rhetorical value of "unelected" was to paint the EU and Federal Reserve as unrepresentative. Hell, by your logic, the U.S. Senate before the 20th Century wasn't elected because they were elected by state legislatures instead of popular elections.

[deleted]

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#267

Post by tn135 »

Mz wrote: post #242
tn135 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The flood of cheap goods destroyed communities that depended on manufacturing work There is no evidence to that. Cheap goods helped poor people live a better life and build better communities. American houses today are better than they were 30 years ago. American healthcare is more accessible than it was 30 years ago. More Americans are getting better education than 30 years ago.

I have one word for you: Detroit. They are in such deep doo doo, a charity was started to pay overdue water bills. They have the most $1 properties on auctions sites of any location. They are experiencing horrifying levels of blight. etc ad nauseum. There's your evidence.

> They are in such deep doo doo, a charity was started to pay overdue water bills.

That is barely any evidence. It is like pointing to a failed Bakery and claiming Bakery industry has sunk. It is a bit like Trump's logic that because Disney replaced some of their staff with H1Bs all programmers are losing their jobs to H1Bs.

Detroit had peak population in 19050s of 1.8M. Today it is half at around 700K. Most of the people have already left Detroit for better future and more will leave.

But guess what? From California to Texas from Washington to Florida not only cities have grown rapidly they have seen unprecedented increase in quality of life of bottom 20% of people. Any protectionist measure aimed at "fixing" Detroit in the Trump's "Make America Great Again" style would have brought a lot of misery to all those people.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#268

Post by samsonradu »

s73ver wrote: post #250
samsonradu wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is quite objectively true. Take a 50% paycut but along with that also cut down the cost of living. Something like Germany today, wages are smaller than in US but the costs of living make their citizens happy(er). Then there will be less wage discrepancy compared to China and co and jobs start coming back.

That's a lot easier said than done. I really have no influence on the cost of housing or food. So if I have a 50% pay cut, I'm probably not going to be able to live where I do.

I know, but it can start with bigger taxes on properties (and better zoning laws). People and investors should be stripped of the idea that buying a house provides a good return. Lowering the leverage when buying a house would also help push prices down. Foreign buyers should be taxed more to avoid speculators.

I don't think food is a problem though, western EU food prices are not smaller.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#269

Post by coldtea »

nerfhammer wrote: post #248
notfromhere wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have a job making 55k and a job making 20k, you're employed but your material condition declined

Is that actually what has happened? Evidence please?

Because there's not enough real world evidence on the matter that one can empirically observe, and we need stats and research?

manufacturing jobs [which] comprise just 10% of all employment in America (in percentage terms, there has been a virtually uninterrupted decline since 1970's 26%) (The economist)

Or: http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/29/news/economy/us-manufacturin...

And even those statistics can be and are manipulated in lots of ways from pundits to make a point that "it has never been better" and that everybody migrated happily to services jobs etc. That people used to be able to buy a house and send kids to college (and put some money aside) in the 50-60s with a manufacturing job, and they don't now is rarely mentioned. Or that tons of tricks are used to reduce the unemployment numbers.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#270

Post by lukas099 »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #264
lukas099 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A change can be very bad for a group within a country, but better for the long-term self-interest of the country as a whole, though. If a globalization measure pushes a large number of Americans out of jobs temporarily, it could be the basis of such a "populist uprise", but couldn't it be better for the country as a whole if it opens up new areas for economic growth, even on a purely self-interested level? And couldn…

You know it's strange because I can only ever find people arguing this when they know they won't be the ones to be out of a job. Aka this forum is pretty open to the idea of people being displaced but go check out some of the threads here about H1Bs, there's a lot of vehement opposition there. Or for a hypothetical, imagine we were able to import or outsource our politicians to cheaper politicians in India. How quick…

> You know it's strange because I can only ever find people arguing this when they know they won't be the ones to be out of a job.

True. You've pretty much identified the nature of special interest groups and why they have so much power.

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