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Some Android apps are using ultrasonic beacons to track users

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Re: Some Android apps are using ultrasonic beacons to track users

#81

Post by throwanem »

Yetanfou wrote: post #35
IshKebab wrote: post #19

> The only good news found in this research was that after searching TV streams from seven different countries, researchers failed to discover any ultrasonic beacons Would that even work? I'm pretty sure modern digital TV audio compression totally removes sound that is vaguely close to 'ultrasound'. I guess maybe smart TV apps could add the signal though, but why would they when they already know what you are watchin…

They'd do it to connect profiles between the TV (which knows what you're watching) and any mobile devices within ultrasound reach (i.e. line of sight) of the TV. Do this a few times and it quickly becomes clear which phone is usually within range of the TV, and with that the profiles can be merged, giving a broader view of the user behind these devices. The solution is simple: don't get a 'smart' television. Better s…

The plural is "circenses".

It's never going to be easier than it is today to buy a non-"smart" TV. It is going to get harder. In a decade, they'll probably be as niche and expensive, new-old-stock or refurb, as CRTs are relative to LCD panels now.

Re: Some Android apps are using ultrasonic beacons to track users

#83

Post by chickenbane »

obsurveyor wrote: post #56
dtech wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This works the same since Android 6 (2015)

Google doesn't even apply the permissions very tightly. App makers are happy to ignore recommendations(I don't think they're requirements) to work, even if not granted the permission. They just do things like prompt over and over or completely stop working if they detect they're given the fake, default data from not being given permission to things like your Contacts or Location. There's no user agency in Android 6.0…

Obviously the first problem is most users (almost 2/3) aren't using M+. However, that being said I do want to clear up some of your points about user agency.

It is true app makers are happy to ignore recommendations, but users with M+ are much more empowered. So, for example, if the app makes permission requests repeatedly, on the 2nd ask Android will provide the "Never ask again" check to auto deny permission requests. So if an app is being annoying about a permission you (the Android user) don't want to give you can silence the app.

Also, you can always deny individual permissions after you've granted them, which also includes apps that don't target M+. So if you don't think an app should require the Contacts permission then you can deny only that permission. You can argue that this is a "power user" feature, but if you're interested in app permissions I think M+ gives you the appropriate levers. And surprisingly, I've seen the developers who fix their app if enough users uninstall it and leaving a review citing poor permissions.

Re: Some Android apps are using ultrasonic beacons to track users

#86

Post by Yetanfou »

chadgeidel wrote: post #69
Yetanfou wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'd do it to connect profiles between the TV (which knows what you're watching) and any mobile devices within ultrasound reach (i.e. line of sight) of the TV. Do this a few times and it quickly becomes clear which phone is usually within range of the TV, and with that the profiles can be merged, giving a broader view of the user behind these devices. The solution is simple: don't get a 'smart' television. Better s…

I'm with you on not getting a 'smart' TV, but this comment reeks of elitism: "Better still is to forego on television altogether but if you insist on having canned 'entertainment' (panem et circensis) beamed into your domicile" What if I want to play games, watch movies, or just sit down and otherwise enjoy myself? Is everything that comes on a screen an unnecessary diversion or is it just a screen of a certain size?

In what way is it 'elitist' to dislike the pablum ditched out by television channels? Strange, the way things go. It used to be that those who did not have a television set were seen as backwards but now it seems to be the opposite.

I never liked television programming, not as a child, not as an adult. There is nothing elitist about it, I just like doing things myself.

BTW, the mere fact that you're replying to a message I submitted to this forum should tell you it I do not consider everything that comes on a screen an unnecessary diversion, given the fact that the probability of me using a screen to read and enter text here is rather high. Television is quite well-defined as being a medium designed for mostly passive consumption of entertainment and information. It is the combination of hardware and a whole industry to provide programming to animate those screens. It is the latter, the industry and its products, which I dislike. The hardware can be quite useful.

Re: Some Android apps are using ultrasonic beacons to track users

#87

Post by Yetanfou »

dredmorbius wrote: post #72
Yetanfou wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'd do it to connect profiles between the TV (which knows what you're watching) and any mobile devices within ultrasound reach (i.e. line of sight) of the TV. Do this a few times and it quickly becomes clear which phone is usually within range of the TV, and with that the profiles can be merged, giving a broader view of the user behind these devices. The solution is simple: don't get a 'smart' television. Better s…

Hell, I'd be happy if I could buy a dumb stove. After a recent experience: that's simply not possible. Every damned kitchen stove on the market has electronics in it (failure-on-delivery of which in multiple instances spurred on the search), and increasingly: Bluetooth or Wifi capabilities. Ironically, one thing the new stove improves on over its predecessor is that there's far less electronics hum coming from it. Th…

My stove is a dumb as it gets. It burns wood and produces heat. More wood and/or more air -> more heat. Living in the countryside has its advantages, I guess it will be hard to cook on a wood-burning stove when you live in a city or suburban environment - not to mention the problem of getting wood to feed the thing, even though it is really quite effective - the equivalent of about 1 m of 2x4 of wood is enough for a 2-course meal for 4 people (not that I feed it 2x4's of course). As an added benefit it heats up the kitchen sufficiently to be used as the only source of heat in spring and early fall here in the Swedish countryside.

Re: Some Android apps are using ultrasonic beacons to track users

#88

Post by obsurveyor »

chickenbane wrote: post #83
obsurveyor wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google doesn't even apply the permissions very tightly. App makers are happy to ignore recommendations(I don't think they're requirements) to work, even if not granted the permission. They just do things like prompt over and over or completely stop working if they detect they're given the fake, default data from not being given permission to things like your Contacts or Location. There's no user agency in Android 6.0…

Obviously the first problem is most users (almost 2/3) aren't using M+. However, that being said I do want to clear up some of your points about user agency. It is true app makers are happy to ignore recommendations, but users with M+ are much more empowered. So, for example, if the app makes permission requests repeatedly, on the 2nd ask Android will provide the "Never ask again" check to auto deny permission reques…

I forgot about the "Never ask again" functionality, that is definitely good for user agency but it would be much better if Google required apps on the Play store to function with real data or fake data. This includes having an alternate auth method if the user doesn't grant access to their account, especially in light of the following paragraph.

However, you don't really address my concern that Contacts is grouped up with Accounts when it shouldn't be. I cannot deny an app access to my contacts while allowing it to use my account to sign in. Android app permissions need to become much more granular and fully backwards compatible.

Ironically, I'm sitting here not upgrading my phone to Nougat because I really dislike the material design aesthetic of the UI. It's ugly, blinding white and turns every icon into boring circles. It also apparently breaks a lot of stuff that I use everyday.

Re: Some Android apps are using ultrasonic beacons to track users

#89

Post by ClassyJacket »

0x0 wrote: post #48
ClassyJacket wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only on apps that target Android 6 however. They couldn't retroactively apply it. Just build your app targeting Lollipop and you get all the permissions you want. Plus their app store isn't as strongly vetted, so apps can refuse to work if you don't grant a bullshit tracking permission.

This I never understood. Couldn't they just supply the app with empty lists and black pixels for restricted APIs until the user approved the permission? iOS managed to do this retroactively just fine.

I believe they do, but you have to specifically go into your settings and explicitly block the permission for the app and click thru a warning that the app might break, rather than ever being asked.

I don't remember when iOS did this retroactively, do you have an example? When have they even added a new permission that wasn't a new API entirely?

Re: Some Android apps are using ultrasonic beacons to track users

#90

Post by dredmorbius »

Yetanfou wrote: post #87
dredmorbius wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hell, I'd be happy if I could buy a dumb stove. After a recent experience: that's simply not possible. Every damned kitchen stove on the market has electronics in it (failure-on-delivery of which in multiple instances spurred on the search), and increasingly: Bluetooth or Wifi capabilities. Ironically, one thing the new stove improves on over its predecessor is that there's far less electronics hum coming from it. Th…

My stove is a dumb as it gets. It burns wood and produces heat. More wood and/or more air -> more heat. Living in the countryside has its advantages, I guess it will be hard to cook on a wood-burning stove when you live in a city or suburban environment - not to mention the problem of getting wood to feed the thing, even though it is really quite effective - the equivalent of about 1 m of 2x4 of wood is enough for a…

The point remains that it is not possible to find, within a typical appliance store, a gas or electric oven/range which has no electronic componentry. I suspect your stove is not currently in production?

It's been suggested that if I were serious about a fully analogue stove I might consider a restaurant model. I'll keep that in mind, though these tend not to be sized to typical home dimensions.

And I suspect many of these are also increasingly being electronified.

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