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Is the GPL Really Declining?

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Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#201

Post by cr0sh »

dagw wrote: post #18

Comparing the mid to late 90s with today it seems hackers have on the whole become more commercially minded. Back in the 90s there was a more idealistic and 'punk' ethos surrounding the hacker scene with documents like the Hacker Manifesto being a thing people actually believed in and aspired to. The GPL fit right into that. Then the world changed a bit and all of a sudden people realized that you could become both a…

Don't confuse software developer or entrepreneurs with hackers. Hackers haven't changed - they are still out there, they still exist, and many are displeased with some of the ways things are turning out.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#202

Post by oblio »

tanderson92 wrote: post #156
oblio wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're both right. The problem is, his side is "winning". Linux is quite hostile to proprietary software, so not that many people will use Linux since apps > OS. So if OSS doesn't push for better apps even on proprietary systems, it won't even get out of this catch 22.

erikbye never indicated that he cares whether OSS gets out of the catch 22. I develop a Linux distribution and I know that I do not care. I care about my experience and other users' experiences, but not people who use MacOS. I value software freedom of the things I work on much more than a Mac user.

> I develop a Linux distribution and I know that I do not care.

Well, you should care. You should care when your clients or friends send you a file in a format that you can't open or transform properly on Linux. When you want to print something and your printer doesn't have drivers for it. When you want to play an AAA game and it's not available for Linux. Etc., etc.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#203

Post by cr0sh »

err4nt wrote: post #146
dagw wrote: post #18

Comparing the mid to late 90s with today it seems hackers have on the whole become more commercially minded. Back in the 90s there was a more idealistic and 'punk' ethos surrounding the hacker scene with documents like the Hacker Manifesto being a thing people actually believed in and aspired to. The GPL fit right into that. Then the world changed a bit and all of a sudden people realized that you could become both a…

I'll offer a little counterpoint to that. I had known 'free software' as shareware until ~2001 when I had my first introduction to Linux. I was very curious, and took to open source software AND the ideals very easily. Because of my experience as a teenager poking around operating systems, fixing xorg.conf files after compiling nVidia drivers, and running and using thousands of different software applications - tools…

You had me up to the end of your third paragraph, then you dropped off a cliff.

You're free to believe and think what you want, of course, but the whole point of the GPL is make sure that the code is "paid forward", and not locked up somewhere along the chain.

The GPL is there so that future up-and-coming curious kids can see the code, and learn from it - much like you did.

I grew up in a slightly different world. The GPL first came about in 1989; I was a sophomore in high school, and had no idea about it. The "free software" code I learned from was printed in magazines, that you typed in. As time wore on, though, something along the line changed - code to type in was getting less, and proprietary was growing. I held some of that at bay with my Amiga (which still carried some of the spirit in the magazines of the time), but still change kept coming.

Several years went by, until in about 1995 I was introduced to Linux by a friend of mine (who, interestingly, I met via a 2600 meetup) - and also to the GPL by extension. Here was an entire operating system I could see the code of! Amazing! It was all there - out in the open - for me to play with, learn from, and modify as needed or desired! Freedom! All I had to do was agree to pay it forward...

...and I'm ok with that. I don't want a younger person like me to be stuck in the dim place again, without access to the code to learn from. I also want them to experience the thrill of having the code available to work with. I don't want anyone - myself or others - to take that away.

And believe me, if a corporation really wanted to, they could work to lock up non-GPL'd works. All they need to do is become much more popular, and let the original work wither on the vine. It may take decades for that to happen (BSD vs OS-X?) - but it can happen. They can wait. But that kid 50 or 100 years from now? What about him or her?

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#204

Post by ori_b »

joshuamorton wrote: post #138
phkahler wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I want anyone to be able to do whatever they want to with my code. That includes developers wanting to create a proprietary application. Telling them they can't is not freedom. You emphasized anyone but by allowing developers to take the code proprietary, their users (which are using your code) are being denied the freedom you promote. This is of course the distinction between GPL and BSD-type licenses. One gives…

>You emphasized anyone but by allowing developers to take the code proprietary, their users (which are using your code) are being denied the freedom you promote. This is of course the distinction between GPL and BSD-type licenses. One gives developers all the freedom they want while the other ensures that all users (including those using derivative works) are given those freedoms. Their users are not being denied the…

> The cynic in me really thinks its important to wonder why there exists a GNU, and not an organization formed around and sustained by the MIT license.

Of course. The MIT license is the legal equivalent of putting shit out on your lawn with a big 'FREE' sign. There's no need to protect that. The GPL requires you to pay the developers in contributions, which requires enforcement.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#205

Post by ralmidani »

geokon wrote: post #168
ralmidani wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's a little fuzzy because you can have opensource projects that make money As I see it, the purpose of copyleft is not to prevent anyone from making money; if someone does want to use a copylefted work to make money, they'll just have to play fair and release their source code under the same license. In other words, what copyleft prevents is predatory use of "open source" which involves taking eagerly without givi…

Right, but doesn't this ends up giving SaaS and server side businesses a weird kinda-nonsensical advantage? I'm thinking, say you make some innovative new algo using GPL software. If you try to distribute it to your customers you end up having to give away the "secret sauce". You'd have no business b/c anyone can just take your work and recompile it So you only have two solutions: 1 - You run it on your own servers a…

That's where the AGPL comes in.

Of course, Service as a Software Substitute (SaaSS) providers could hide their use of AGPL code. But the owner of that code could promise a reward for whistleblowers. That would deter most predators from misappropriating AGPL code.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#206

Post by tanderson92 »

oblio wrote: post #202
tanderson92 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

erikbye never indicated that he cares whether OSS gets out of the catch 22. I develop a Linux distribution and I know that I do not care. I care about my experience and other users' experiences, but not people who use MacOS. I value software freedom of the things I work on much more than a Mac user.

> I develop a Linux distribution and I know that I do not care. Well, you should care. You should care when your clients or friends send you a file in a format that you can't open or transform properly on Linux. When you want to print something and your printer doesn't have drivers for it. When you want to play an AAA game and it's not available for Linux. Etc., etc.

My friends send me e-mails and messages, which I read with open source software, with links to news articles that I read with open source software. I message with open-source apps using open standards.

I manage (and share with my peers!) the books for an organization with GNUCash.

I collaborate on and write papers with LaTeX, write my code in languages with open standards, use primarily open source compilers, and run my code on Linux cluster which use open-standard parallel communication APIs and open-source implementations.

I do not play video games.

My office printer is plug and play with Linux/CUPS.

All done on my trusty custom linux distro (Exherbo) for years. Oh, and I haven't reinstalled since 2010 but I am running the most recent open-source GNU/Linux software.

Maybe my life and my needs don't match others', but then again maybe erikbye's don't either. Anyway, that is why I do not care about more people using Linux. If anything, more Linux users have made the internet a less useful resource for helpful Linux knowledge.

Why should I care?

P.S. my phone is another story, but I expect different things in that space.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#207

Post by oblio »

tanderson92 wrote: post #206
oblio wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I develop a Linux distribution and I know that I do not care. Well, you should care. You should care when your clients or friends send you a file in a format that you can't open or transform properly on Linux. When you want to print something and your printer doesn't have drivers for it. When you want to play an AAA game and it's not available for Linux. Etc., etc.

My friends send me e-mails and messages, which I read with open source software, with links to news articles that I read with open source software. I message with open-source apps using open standards. I manage (and share with my peers!) the books for an organization with GNUCash. I collaborate on and write papers with LaTeX, write my code in languages with open standards, use primarily open source compilers, and run…

Then consider yourself lucky.

And you probably shouldn't care, except for altruistic reasons :)

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#208

Post by bonzini »

thesuitonym wrote: post #171
mook wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget the weak-copyleft licenses like the MPL, where it's perfectly fine to use it in commercial projects, but all users are guaranteed access to the copyleft source code (but not the proprietary code on top).

This is exactly what MIT and BSD licenses do.

No, MIT and BSD allow proprietary derivatives of any kind, throwing away any expectations of reciprocity.

MPL and LGPL draw a line between code that is allowed to be distributed under a proprietary license, and code where the copyleft applies.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#209

Post by watwut »

nihonde wrote: post #21

There was a time when it seemed inconceivable that developers would be motivated to release code under MIT or BSD style licenses that lacked the "viral" distribution obligations of the GPL. Back then, it seemed obvious that a healthy open source community was going to need to force "borrowers" of the code to contribute their improvements in order to avoid freeloading. However, the reality is that plenty of healthy op…

Licenses are legal and public relations whips cracked at people. They would not work otherwise.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#210

Post by nkvoll »

michaelmrose wrote: post #187
nkvoll wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, HiDPI support does not work on Linux either. All icons, color palette, custom cursors are about half the size they should be on my 4k monitor. Scrolling is pretty choppy and it doesn't support smooth/inertial scrolling. So 3/5 of his listed issues exist on the Linux version.

Is this wayland/X what desktop environment? What gpu? What driver?

Same experience in both Wayland and X11. Intel built-in graphics, i915 driver.
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