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Is the GPL Really Declining?

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191–200 of 242 posts

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#191
post #62

> The GPL is a fine open source license that grants all the permissions needed by developer communities that adopt it. There is no sense in which it is not "permissive", so to use that term as an antonym to "copyleft" verges on abuse. Sigh. This attitude makes it enormously difficult to have any kind of conversation about the tradeoffs of open source licenses, because it reveals a profound lack of perspective or will…

An anarchist ought not care what the license terms are; they are already operating in an ethical framework that revokes concern for a collection of words that rely on state violence to have meaning.

An anarchist could very well see using a license as a political act: disagreeing with the existence of an institution doesn't prevent you from using the levers of power provided by that institution to achieve a given end.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#192
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is simply not true. For instance iXsystems contributes back to FreeBSD snd also sponsors the foundation. On the other hand a lot of WiFi router vendors violate the GPL by not releasing the code and contribute nothing back to Linux.

For every iXsystems (who are excellent Free Software citizens) you have many NetApp, EMC and Isilons, who use the FreeBSD code to build profitable products on and give nothing in return. NetApp is a very good example, as they contribute NFS code back to Linux but not FreeBSD. Why do you think that might be ?

>For every iXsystems (who are excellent Free Software citizens) you have many NetApp, EMC and Isilons, who use the FreeBSD code to build profitable products on and give nothing in return. NetApp is a very good example, as they contribute NFS code back to Linux but not FreeBSD.

Literally every company you mentioned contributes code to FreeBSD, so what are you even talking about[1][2][3]?

[1]: https://freshbsd.org/search?project=freebsd&q=netapp

[2]: https://freshbsd.org/search?project=freebsd&q=emc

[3]: https://freshbsd.org/search?project=freebsd&q=iXsystems

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#193
post #114
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The *BSDs show clearly what would have happened, most hardware vendors that ship some BSD variant on their hardware don't contribute anything back.

That is simply not true. For instance iXsystems contributes back to FreeBSD snd also sponsors the foundation. On the other hand a lot of WiFi router vendors violate the GPL by not releasing the code and contribute nothing back to Linux.

GPL enforcement of said wifi routers is the _only_ reason we have drivers for several wifi chipsets. Perhaps ironically, the BSDs benefited from this too.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#194
> Surely the number of users using the software is the best metric?

no.

> Or the number of lines of code under the license?

no.

> Or the number of committers collectively working on projects under that license? Or the number of published articles advocating for it?

sorry, no and no.

If I sold cars, and you asked me how popular my car is, the only metric would be, how many did I sell (not how big is it, or how many people it took to build, or how many articles were published about it). This is not a hard question. You can count projects on github and elsewhere and what licenses they are using and that's your answer.

the GPL is declining for reasons the author points out, that GPL doesn't work for libraries and frameworks: "For developers mixing ingredients from multiple origins – frameworks, components, libraries – reciprocal license requirements increase the uncertainty rather than decrease it."

What he fails to quote a statistic for (and I'd be curious to see) would be what percentage of open source projects are fully realized applications (like LibreOffice) vs. libraries/ frameworks (like the enormous number of libraries for Python, Javascript, Ruby, Go), and how has that number been changing over the years.

Years ago I was planning to release SQLAlchemy on the LGPL and I was quickly talked out of it, reminded that the langauge of the LGPL is archaically focused on C-centric concepts like linkers and that it scares the crap out of legal departments. I haven't looked since but it seems like Gnu hasn't improved upon that situation. The author refers to open source as " the “safe space” in which developers with an interest in a piece of software, for whatever reason, are able to collaborate over its evolution without the motivations of others impacting their own usage." - for me and probably most other people, that's a BSD-like license, so that all your collaborators who are after all using your software to produce something in-house at their place of employment, can freely use and contribute to your software without them being hindered by their company legal departments.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Unless they know it came from you and where to get it (which will not be advertised), they are. And almost all licenses require attribution. >Also, after you die and your source code is gone, the derivative work could still go on to whatever success and none of the users of your code will have access to it except for that developer of the derivative work. This makes no sense. The source code of what I did will still…

>> This makes no sense. The source code of what I did will still be around, and still be attributed. Dying doesn't make my work disappear into the ether. Yes it does, unless someone keeps it online or somehow available. But again, just because it technically exists somewhere doesn't mean a user of the derived work will know how to find it, nor what parts that work are actually covered by your code prior to finding it…

>But again, just because it technically exists somewhere doesn't mean a user of the derived work will know how to find it

This sounds pretty ridiculous to me. Can you cite an example of abandonware that completely disappeared from the public internet but continued to be used by some user-facing product? It seems to me that if development stagnates on a project entirely, its almost a certainty that the project is unused, or has been forked (and potentially new changes have been placed under another license).

>nor what parts that work are actually covered by your code prior to finding it

So, the open source license should really only be relevant to highly technical users (that is, my parents will never care about the license software is under). I'd hope those users are capable of discerning what the OSS licensed software does.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#196

I think there's two split types of developers. When I was younger, mostly hanging around on IRC servers and forums, coding just my own cool projects, I strongly believed in the GPL. All of my projects had it, and I wouldn't even dream of allowing someone to use my code without making their entire project open too. That's the first type I think. The second type is the more HN-style professional programmer. Now as I've…

> I want anyone to be able to do whatever they want to with my code. That includes developers wanting to create a proprietary application. Telling them they can't is not freedom.

I look on the GPL somewhat differently. I look at it as a means of payment to the community (and to myself by extension for my own work).

I want to be paid for my code and the things I create. But I also want to give back to the community. The GPL allows me both. You may ask, though, what kind of money can I get if I give the code away?

I don't want money.

I want code.

Code for code. That's what I want as payment. I want the code so I can learn from it. So I can make my code better. So I can make the thing I made better, and so I can give that better thing out to others, so they can make their things better.

I could make my code proprietary and "closed" - but that doesn't mean I'll get any payment for it. In fact, it might be copied and pirated. Proprietary code also doesn't allow me to share the code.

Releasing it BSD-style allows me to share the code, but I still might not get any payment for it. Honestly, I don't want the money - I don't need the money.

But code? I can always use more code. I can always learn from other's code. Code is very valuable to me.

Another thing - I know that if I die, or if I stop giving away my code for some reason (by choice or not) - my code can live on, and continue paying back to others in code. I don't have to worry that someone out there won't be able to use the code or run the code because the hardware has changed so much (they might have to recompile, or perhaps rewrite some of it - but they have the code to do so), or if it has a bug, they can fix it with the code.

I look at the GPL as a means of paying for code, and getting paid for code - by being paid in code.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#197
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's a little fuzzy because you can have opensource projects that make money As I see it, the purpose of copyleft is not to prevent anyone from making money; if someone does want to use a copylefted work to make money, they'll just have to play fair and release their source code under the same license. In other words, what copyleft prevents is predatory use of "open source" which involves taking eagerly without givi…

Right, but doesn't this ends up giving SaaS and server side businesses a weird kinda-nonsensical advantage? I'm thinking, say you make some innovative new algo using GPL software. If you try to distribute it to your customers you end up having to give away the "secret sauce". You'd have no business b/c anyone can just take your work and recompile it So you only have two solutions: 1 - You run it on your own servers a…

> Right, but doesn't this ends up giving SaaS and server side businesses a weird kinda-nonsensical advantage?

Or "appliance" vendors. SaaS and hardware appliances are two delivery mechanisms that leverage loopholes in GPL requirements.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#198

I think there's two split types of developers. When I was younger, mostly hanging around on IRC servers and forums, coding just my own cool projects, I strongly believed in the GPL. All of my projects had it, and I wouldn't even dream of allowing someone to use my code without making their entire project open too. That's the first type I think. The second type is the more HN-style professional programmer. Now as I've…

GPL's freedom is for the user.

Freedoms to alter and redistribute... These are powerful things and very different from commercial considerations or "how much hassle it causes a developer". If you're coming at things from that point of view, GPL will rarely seem a good fit.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said for a long time that people should choose a license they way the choose a screwdriver, not the way they choose a religion. Your comment touches on both parts of that. Want code to be open forever, and for you and your contributors to not be taken commercial advantage of? GPL could be a good choice. Do you desire total world domination (for a new protocol, for instance) then go with something like MIT that a…

Somewhat off topic, but I've noticed people using the word 'religious' in arguments like this to mean more or less 'positions that one holds that are not based on logical reasoning but strong personal preference'. Wouldn't dogmatic be the more appropriate word choice?

I would call it religious, because they (including some I know personally) attribute strong moral value to the whole thing. It is not just that they strongly prefer certain license, it is that they see close source developers as morally less worthy and inherently less "good" (whether professionally or ethically).

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#200
post #16

The main reason for this in my opinion is that the fear free software had of permissive licenses in the 90s by an large didn't come true. The GPL is excellent to guard against the sort of embrace, extend and close that the GPL prevented when it came to GCC, Emacs etc. back in its day, but would likely have otherwise happened. Times are different now, and while there's still some of that going on (e.g. Sony with FreeB…

> Times are different now

Now. But what about tomorrow?

Neither you nor I can know what tomorrow will bring. But should it revert back to the old status-quo, what then? What if these self-same companies take all of the nice BSD/MIT/non-GPL'd code, package it up, make it better - so much so that people prefer it over the original! - and sell it, and make a mint off it, and it becomes much more popular.

They continue to extend it, but never give anything back to the original authors, and perhaps the original project dies from lack of use by people, and faltering participation of developers because no one is using it.

So now - wonderful open source software goes from being open - to closed and proprietary. The users don't care - they are getting great value for their money, right? But the software, which was once open and useful for the developers, is virtually gone.

Don't think it could ever change back to this? Don't be a fool. Maybe not in 5 years, or 10 - or maybe it will!

History does repeat - or at least echoes loud and clearly. Being prepared for such a possibility is better, in my perspective, than assuming the way things are today is the way they'll always be going forward.

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