Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#111

Post by abritinthebay » Thu, May 04, 2017, 6:01 PM UTC

flubert wrote: post #46

ryanmarsh wrote: post #9

> Cook told "60 Minutes” in 2015. “I mean, you can take every tool and die maker in the United States and probably put them in a room that we’re currently sitting in. In China, you would have to have multiple football fields.” In that interview he also said that the jobs weren't coming back. This is one of the most powerful statements uttered on American labor and employment trends in recent memory. I have shared thi…

>> Cook told "60 Minutes” in 2015. “I mean, you can take every tool and die maker in the United States and probably put them in a room that we’re currently sitting in. In China, you would have to have multiple football fields.” The BLS seems to think there are 72,000 tool and die makers in the U.S.. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes514111.htm#(1) >I have shared this quote with every middle/lower-middle class person…

I think Cook was more talking about representatives from each company - not everyone employed by them.

There are an order of magnitude more people employed as tool and die makers in China anyhow so, even if you do use that as a metric, the broader point still stands.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#112

Post by euphoria83 » Thu, May 04, 2017, 6:02 PM UTC

This is the way to bring jobs back to the US. Start with investing "small" sums of money to create an enterprise that will require manufacturing expertise in some area. The ecosystem will then expand. Other companies can then take advantage of the same expertise. Also, the radius of expertise will grow as supporting jobs crop up.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#113

Post by plafl » Thu, May 04, 2017, 6:05 PM UTC

ryanmarsh wrote: post #66

no1youknowz wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's something else that should shake US and UK highly skilled workers. Our time will soon come as well. In China, they are racing to match and surpass western standards. I would say, they have already matched in some cases. But unlike the west where companies export out to save costs. Companies in China do everything in-house. There will be a time where these 6 figure jobs that some HN users have, will go down by…

> There will be a time where these 6 figure jobs that some HN users have, will go down by 50%. Why? Better coders outside of the US, UK, EUR, etc. One of my clients is one of the largest multinational corp. in the world. They're excellent at getting things done, above average at remote work, and obviously have offices around the world. Their primary industry has a drastically changing demographic in the US which is p…

It might be that workers on a dictatorship will never have better conditions. The only way to reach an equilibrium is for the rest to lower their wages. Having no regulation is an illusion because dictatorships are heavily regulated and it is this regulation the one that takes effect.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#114

Post by dmix » Thu, May 04, 2017, 6:06 PM UTC

xaa wrote: post #92

dmix wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> American labor was fucked anyways, Globalism only accelerated trends that would have happened anyhow This is an important and underrated idea that so often gets lost thanks to politics. Much like the drug war, people think that market trends and phenomenons can be controlled somehow, that they are simply choices that people make, and those choices can be controlled - people can simply just choose not to make that c…

> market trends and phenomenons can be controlled somehow, that they are simply choices that people make, and those choices can be controlled This double standard galls me. If a trend is detrimental to American workers, it's market trends, like the hand of God, irresistible. If it's beneficial, it's a historical fluke (post-WWII boom). I might buy this if the U.S. government had been a neutral bystander in this proce…

So basically you think the US government has been highly influential in developing 'globalism' and it's not entirely a natural phenomenon as a result of air travel, telecommunications, mature financial markets, lack of global war/conflict, the opening of the east to global markets, etc?

Most of the things you mention, poor enforcement of tax havens, immigration policy, low taxes on capital, massive military spending, coincided with the development of globalism or were a reaction to it.

But regardless I disagree with your thesis, as I hardly see globalism as something that's detrimental to America as a whole. That may be the mainstream narrative but it's largely inaccurate. The thing about capitalism is that it goes throw booms/busts and it evolves. This is just another phase and we've all been pretending we're in control but the reality of the situation has become apparent recently.

So the dichotomy between historical fluke and market trends doesn't really exist. Historical flukes are market trends.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#115

Post by jliptzin » Thu, May 04, 2017, 6:06 PM UTC

ryanmarsh wrote: post #9

> Cook told "60 Minutes” in 2015. “I mean, you can take every tool and die maker in the United States and probably put them in a room that we’re currently sitting in. In China, you would have to have multiple football fields.” In that interview he also said that the jobs weren't coming back. This is one of the most powerful statements uttered on American labor and employment trends in recent memory. I have shared thi…

This is basically what happens when capitalism is allowed to run wild. Massive industries consolidate into a few major players who have immense power over their workers. In this case, manufacturers realized that it's more economical to manufacture in China than in the US so that's what they've been doing. Simple economics. They owe nothing to the workers, only the shareholders. The manufacturing centers of the American rustbelt lost, and when you lose in a purely capitalist system, it's pretty shitty. It'll be interesting to see what happens. Trump certainly won't bring back their jobs in any meaningful way. The only way that will happen is if it becomes economical for companies to manufacture here again vs. China. But good luck with that.

I am not anti-capitalism by any means, but I think strong protections against monopolies and protection for workers are probably a good thing for everyone.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#116

Post by SimbaOnSteroids » Thu, May 04, 2017, 6:06 PM UTC

david-cako wrote: post #34

ryanmarsh wrote: post #9

> Cook told "60 Minutes” in 2015. “I mean, you can take every tool and die maker in the United States and probably put them in a room that we’re currently sitting in. In China, you would have to have multiple football fields.” In that interview he also said that the jobs weren't coming back. This is one of the most powerful statements uttered on American labor and employment trends in recent memory. I have shared thi…

What's the answer? Protectionism? That's the thing I don't get, so many people will advocate "fewer regulations", yet are perfectly content with prohibitive tariffs from the place that allows people living in section 8 to afford iPhones. You're 100% right, but i just don't see a good answer other than coming to terms with the fact that cheap labour overseas and automation WILL back us into UBI in the very near future…

There is this false notion that the rich will throw in the towel or that the pot is barely sweet as is and asking to take out a bit of sugar would make it unpalatable. The reality of the situation is they're rich precisely because they're extremely good at leveraging things in their favor. Muting that a bit isn't going to change that base quality in them. I know I'm speaking broadly but it applies broadly.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#117

Post by scarface74 » Thu, May 04, 2017, 6:07 PM UTC

a-fake-account wrote: post #39

no1youknowz wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's something else that should shake US and UK highly skilled workers. Our time will soon come as well. In China, they are racing to match and surpass western standards. I would say, they have already matched in some cases. But unlike the west where companies export out to save costs. Companies in China do everything in-house. There will be a time where these 6 figure jobs that some HN users have, will go down by…

Yes an intelligent JavaScript developer. Who could imagine. I would wager the front end developer will continue to be a high paying job longer than the backend developer. You can outsource API creation but any product company can't risk not having a UX friendly and well designed front end.

The last 3 jobs I've had is to rearchitect a badly written non scaleable, brittle system, with no unit tests to one that was better architected with automated testing. They tried to get away with cheap (domestic) coders and people who were at the company for 20 years.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#118

Post by philipkglass » Thu, May 04, 2017, 6:09 PM UTC

ice109 wrote: post #41

no1youknowz wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's something else that should shake US and UK highly skilled workers. Our time will soon come as well. In China, they are racing to match and surpass western standards. I would say, they have already matched in some cases. But unlike the west where companies export out to save costs. Companies in China do everything in-house. There will be a time where these 6 figure jobs that some HN users have, will go down by…

what exactly is the problem with this? a 50% pay cut is still a fantastic wage (globally relative). what exactly is wrong with the standard of living going up in other places while ours gets a little worse? also if the tech sector really loses half of it earning power the markets that cater to those people will simply deflate. globalization /is/ good in the long run because it brings supply/demand markets to an equil…

If expenses fell at roughly the rate of wages things would be roughly-ok. But the costs of housing, healthcare, and higher education keep going up. Globalization has pushed down the cost of many manufactured goods for Americans but it's not an even trade if nice TVs go from $3000 to $800 while a year of college goes from $8000 to $16000. The cheap-ish stuff getting a lot cheaper can't quantitatively offset big middle class expenses getting even modestly bigger.

To be clear, I'm not saying that globalization is the cause of big-ticket items like healthcare getting more expensive. I am saying that globalization has not depressed big-ticket expenses along with the prices of manufactured goods and middle-class American wages. Many middle-class Americans are experiencing a real decline in material standard of living concomitant with globalization. If equilibration toward a happy new equilibrium takes decades, I don't think that political realities will permit the equilibration to take its own sweet time. Something will rupture first. Maybe it already has ruptured with the election of Trump.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#119

Post by pottersbasilisk » Thu, May 04, 2017, 6:11 PM UTC

SmellTheGlove wrote: post #89

cmdrfred wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that is true why was that message not popular under Obama as well?

Well, Obama didn't do a lot of shitposting on Twitter. Trump shaming companies on a daily basis is probably part of the reason.

Maybe obama should have too instead of planning to take 400,000 dollar wall street speeches.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#120

Post by naravara » Thu, May 04, 2017, 6:11 PM UTC

sbov wrote: post #51

david-cako wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the answer? Protectionism? That's the thing I don't get, so many people will advocate "fewer regulations", yet are perfectly content with prohibitive tariffs from the place that allows people living in section 8 to afford iPhones. You're 100% right, but i just don't see a good answer other than coming to terms with the fact that cheap labour overseas and automation WILL back us into UBI in the very near future…

But it's not completely a labor play. Some of it is to skirt environmental protections. I'm not going to assume, but if you consider yourself both a globalist and an environmentalist, how do you personally resolve those two beliefs? Anyone reading this who does, how do you resolve those beliefs? I can vote for all the environmental protections that I want, but what good does that do if it just forces companies to man…

Poor, starving, and desperate people don't have the luxury to worry about environmental protections.

Their governments are going to work to improve their standards of living one way or another. If they do it with our cooperation, with our more efficient technology, and with our more efficient production practices they will be able to grow in a way that is less environmentally damaging than the Industrial revolution was.

Enriching them and giving them access to education and giving women reproductive choice is also the only way we are going to foster the necessary reduction in birth-rates we will need to live on Earth sustainably.