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Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government bankruptcy

reuters.com

381–390 of 481 posts

Re: Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government bankruptcy

#381
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If they can't produce enough value to justify minimum wages There are alternative views on this. Marx's theory for example says that workers are not paid according to the value they create, or what their labour creates, rather they are paid at the rate which is required to sustain them. The commodity which the worker produces and sells is termed 'labour power', requiring among other things food, enough to support a…

Marx is trivially easy to refute. Try this exercise: See how far you're going to get with your startup by offering to pay software engineers "enough to sustain them". This is cartoonish. I can't believe people say stuff like this in the 21st century.

>See how far you're going to get with your startup by offering to pay software engineers "enough to sustain them".

This is not a refutation. Just like the raw materials used for production, the means of production, land rent etc. what is purchased is a commodity. Labour-time is that commodity. It makes good business sense to not only buy commodities at their value (and no more) but even to try and buy commodities under their value.

Why do you think labour-power is any different? It must be paid in accordance with its value, and how much extra is minimally required to ensure the continuance of the production of this commodity.

>The owner of labour-power is mortal. If then his appearance in the market is to be continuous, and the continuous conversion of money into capital assumes this, the seller of labour-power must perpetuate himself, "in the way that every living individual perpetuates himself, by procreation." The labour-power withdrawn from the market by wear and tear and death, must be continually replaced by, at the very least, an equal amount of fresh labour-power. Hence the sum of the means of subsistence necessary for the production of labour-power must include the means necessary for the labourer's substitutes, i.e., his children, in order that this race of peculiar commodity-owners may perpetuate its appearance in the market.

>Included in the value of labour power is both a physical component (the minimum physical requirements for a healthy worker) and a moral-historical component (the satisfaction of needs beyond the physical minimum which have become an established part of the lifestyle of the average worker). The value of labour power is thus a historical norm, which is the outcome of a combination of factors: productivity; the supply and demand for labour; the assertion of human needs; the costs of acquiring skills; state laws stipulating minimum or maximum wages, the balance of power between social classes, etc.

If the capitalist paid for labour-power at more than its value consistently, in the long run the capitalist will tend to make no profit at all. Profit originates in surplus value being extracted, and although there is leeway (there is a rate of surplus value, for example 0.6, though it could be 0.3 and the capitalist would still make a profit) any sensible capitalist will aim for the largest extraction possible.

Re: Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government bankruptcy

#382
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We owe money to the creditors... and what you do with a debt is to you pay it off. That's not the case. Sometimes, you pay your debt off. Sometimes, you default, and file for bankruptcy. For lenders, it's the cost of doing business. If they don't want to deal with the possibility of bankruptcy, they shouldn't lend out money. Lenders charge creditors a premium, because of the risk of default. It's as much on them to…

That's true in any individual case. But if we make it our social norm that bankruptcy is nothing to be ashamed of and to be taken lightly, won't it change the equilibrium for future generations of lenders and borrowers such that an inefficiently low amount of lending goes on? If everyone has the expectation that the lenders and borrowers will try their best to live up to the contract they made in good faith, wouldn't…

Agreed.

It's pretty much a "Tragedy of the Commons" scenario, IMHO.

Re: Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government bankruptcy

#383
post #5

I have lived all my life in Puerto Rico, and as you can imagine, this issue is quite controversial. We owe money to the creditors... and what you do with a debt is to you pay it off. Yet the amount is so staggering, that I wonder if it's actually possible. As is typical, decisions by politicians placed us in this situation. Decade after decade, 4-year term after 4-year term, the government has spent money it does not…

I'm an accountant and do not think this is the end or even a bad thing necessarily. I know PR is attached to the US Dollar but any dollar has to originate and then be entered into the economy, which is usually done by crediting/lending institutions.

If you look at the entirety of the economy, bankruptcy is inevitable to some level or money has to be made somewhere. There is simply too much cash flow at any given time to say what countries owe what to who because if every country was debt free then there would be absolutely no currency.

Even Trump has filed bankruptcy FOUR times, including defaulting entirely on a multi-billion dollar loan but he gained value through the process. I'm not saying anyone should accept defaulting on any payments but the effects of looking at an entire economy are not necessary the same. The first time PR asked for money, the value of the dollar in PR was then multipled on top of itself every time additional currency was acquired from the US. If PR was going to completely get out of debt, then it would need a large amount to be shot straight into the economy, just like this.

There is so much more to it and nobody knows what will happen, just like we don't know what the stock market will do at a sound of a bell.

Best of luck thou

Re: Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government bankruptcy

#384
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are your thoughts on Puerto Rico becoming the 51st State of the USA? I ask this as a native (mainland) born American who always thought this would be an interesting approach to solve the problem of finances in PR. Is it even well supported or is it a crazy idea?

Why would USA want PR as 51? What benefit is there? PR has more debt that California, and zero industry except for Bacardi rum. Name one thing made in PR?

There is a lot of pharmaceutical manufacturing in PR. Also, textiles and electronics. Tourism and financial services are also significant. Rum is a tiny sector.

Re: Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government bankruptcy

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why Cuba, Venezuela, and North Korea are doing so well. I'm astounded people still think the idea of central production control has any juice left in it after such a thorough debunking in the 20th century.

Which is why Norway, Denmark and Sweden are doing so well with all their socialist programs.... so what now...? I personally feel the right answer is in the middle. Socialise whats required like health, education, emergency services, roads, pensions, etc And leave the luxuries of life as free market. As an extra touch, I would make politicians and civil servants required to use public services rather than private alt…

They are social-democrat, not socialists.

Re: Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government bankruptcy

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true in any individual case. But if we make it our social norm that bankruptcy is nothing to be ashamed of and to be taken lightly, won't it change the equilibrium for future generations of lenders and borrowers such that an inefficiently low amount of lending goes on? If everyone has the expectation that the lenders and borrowers will try their best to live up to the contract they made in good faith, wouldn't…

Limited liability, along with joint stock ownership, was possibly the greatest financial invention of all time. In terms of big history, I would mark the inception of this form of human social organization as the beginning of "The Great Acceleration." To a great degree, this is also why the West became so dominant until recent times, allowing for the building of then state of the art ships to undergo risky trade and…

> I commend him for being able to reinvent himself by learning how to create an effective brand and sell his name.

Which is quite an achievement on a personal level, but is a completely useless thing in every other aspect of society.

Re: Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government bankruptcy

#387
post #10
post #5

I have lived all my life in Puerto Rico, and as you can imagine, this issue is quite controversial. We owe money to the creditors... and what you do with a debt is to you pay it off. Yet the amount is so staggering, that I wonder if it's actually possible. As is typical, decisions by politicians placed us in this situation. Decade after decade, 4-year term after 4-year term, the government has spent money it does not…

> We owe money to the creditors... and what you do with a debt is to you pay it off. That's not the case. Sometimes, you pay your debt off. Sometimes, you default, and file for bankruptcy. For lenders, it's the cost of doing business. If they don't want to deal with the possibility of bankruptcy, they shouldn't lend out money. Lenders charge creditors a premium, because of the risk of default. It's as much on them to…

Completely correct, but a default will mean a much tougher time borrowing in the future. So a bankruptcy now can solve the immediate problem, but this creates a tough situation for the future when debt is needed to finance large projects. What Texas has done was create a "rainy day fund" which is essentially a savings account designed to protect against these sorts of situations. But, that takes fiscal discipline and politicians who are unwilling to attempt to buy votes with money they don't have.

Re: Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government bankruptcy

#388
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I don't know about "taken lightly" but bankruptcy and defaulting on a debt should not be something to be "ashamed" of, for an individual, a company, or a government. It totally depends. There is nothing shameful about declaring bankruptcy because you got into an accident and your insurance company refused to pay your six-figure hospital bill. But if you take out a big loan to build a new hotel and blow it all on ho…

"Fuck yeah you should be ashamed (and also go to prison)." I'm sure you would enjoy 18th century england and US. Debtors prison was once totally a thing. I like to think of it's dismissal as an evidence piece that a civilization evolves.

I would like to point out as an addendum that any laws that would harshly punish defaulting debtors would strike equally harsh towards the delinquent and the morally admirable down on his luck.

When considering seriously hard punishments, think for a while what if the person is actually in the situation from no fault of their own. Because, court often has a hard time doing any moral judgements and just looks at the cold facts.

Re: Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government bankruptcy

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true in any individual case. But if we make it our social norm that bankruptcy is nothing to be ashamed of and to be taken lightly, won't it change the equilibrium for future generations of lenders and borrowers such that an inefficiently low amount of lending goes on? If everyone has the expectation that the lenders and borrowers will try their best to live up to the contract they made in good faith, wouldn't…

> But if we make it our social norm that bankruptcy is nothing to be ashamed of and to be taken lightly I don't know about "taken lightly" but bankruptcy and defaulting on a debt should not be something to be "ashamed" of, for an individual, a company, or a government. Default is an option specifically written into every debt contract out there. There should be no more shame in choosing to default as there would be f…

Not paying your debts is immoral. Sure the risk is priced in but so is the risk of shoplifting in the prices you pay at stores. That doesn't mean that because the risk is priced in that it's somehow moral to shoplift.

Also the reason for default does have some bearing on morality -- a person that declares bankruptcy because of years of buying a new TV every year and going on expensive vacations is much different than a default due to factors outside of one's control (such as being laid off or suffering a medical catastrophe.)

Puerto Rico has, for years, knowingly overspent without much of a fiscal plan to pay debts. This issue isn't due to forces outside their control, but specifically because of decisions they consciously made. It is political malpractice and the people of Puerto Rico will now pay the price for generations. If that isn't immoral, then immoral has lost all meaning.

Re: Puerto Rico files for biggest ever U.S. local government bankruptcy

#390
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I don't know about "taken lightly" but bankruptcy and defaulting on a debt should not be something to be "ashamed" of, for an individual, a company, or a government. It totally depends. There is nothing shameful about declaring bankruptcy because you got into an accident and your insurance company refused to pay your six-figure hospital bill. But if you take out a big loan to build a new hotel and blow it all on ho…

"Fuck yeah you should be ashamed (and also go to prison)." I'm sure you would enjoy 18th century england and US. Debtors prison was once totally a thing. I like to think of it's dismissal as an evidence piece that a civilization evolves.

And present day Dubai.
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