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Is the GPL Really Declining?

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Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#71

I think there's two split types of developers. When I was younger, mostly hanging around on IRC servers and forums, coding just my own cool projects, I strongly believed in the GPL. All of my projects had it, and I wouldn't even dream of allowing someone to use my code without making their entire project open too. That's the first type I think. The second type is the more HN-style professional programmer. Now as I've…

There's a difference between 'open by default' and 'open by purpose'. You might reflexively reach for MIT or Apache, but the GPL might align better with your actual business needs. Simon Wardley gave a decent presentation about strategy mapping a few years ago and mentions it at the end of his talk: https://youtu.be/NnFeIt-uaEc

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#72

I think there's two split types of developers. When I was younger, mostly hanging around on IRC servers and forums, coding just my own cool projects, I strongly believed in the GPL. All of my projects had it, and I wouldn't even dream of allowing someone to use my code without making their entire project open too. That's the first type I think. The second type is the more HN-style professional programmer. Now as I've…

There's a difference between 'open by default' and 'open by purpose'. You might reflexively reach for MIT or Apache, but the GPL might align better with your actual business needs. Simon Wardley gave a decent presentation about strategy mapping a few years ago and mentions it at the end of his talk: https://youtu.be/NnFeIt-uaEc

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#73
post #44
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people who originally wrote a lot of OSS and Linux software were envisioning a world where Adobe tools would be replaced by Gimp/Inkspace and the Ubuntu desktop would make Windows obsolete except for specific MS software/tasks. That never happened. The reason that never happened has nothing to do with the licenses. It happened because most purely open source programs have abysmal UX. Every time I open Inkscape…

The only reason I use GIMP is that Adobe software isn't available on Ubuntu. Sure, some artists have used it to create great works but that speaks more to their capabilities as artists than GIMP's as software. Ubuntu is pretty solid but I would be a liar if I wouldn't admit it has serious flaws (e.g. making the user execute superuser shell commands to test and enable hibernation is pretty shitty UX). I'm tech-savvy e…

> The only reason I use GIMP is that Adobe software isn't available on Ubuntu. Sure, some artists have used it to create great works but that speaks more to their capabilities as artists than GIMP's as software.

Do you think the tool ever makes the artist? I have seen great works of art made with a pencil. A piece of coal. A twig and blood. A simple needle and ink. I have seen great works of art made using Microsoft Paint.

> Ubuntu is pretty solid but I would be a liar if I wouldn't admit it has serious flaws (e.g. making the user execute superuser shell commands to test and enable hibernation is pretty shitty UX). I'm tech-savvy enough to be willing to accept these trade-offs but I can easily see the appeal of macOS (even if the naysayers are right and Apple have lost their way).

I don't like Ubuntu and I don't use it. But, there are plenty of things that can only be done using a terminal in macOS, as well. In fact, macOS/Apple is pretty much known for hiding things from their GUIs.

Anyway, I do not agree that typing in commands are bad UX. Many things are far easier and faster to do in a terminal than through a GUI. One example: installing software.

> I started off the year by giving a couple of alternative browsers a chance to wean me off my reliance on Google Chrome and even Brave was a more workable solution than Firefox: in order to make Firefox work properly I had to learn about its multiprocessing mode and individually test extensions from the official addon hub for compatibility. And while the dev tools certainly feel like a lot of effort went into them they come nowhere near the UX of Chrome's.

Why are you talking about browsers and comparing Firefox to Chrome, are you trying to compare open source vs closed-source? Do you know what Chromium is?

It sounds like you are actually trying to say something as stupid as: open source projects are generally worse than closed source projects?

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#74
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people who originally wrote a lot of OSS and Linux software were envisioning a world where Adobe tools would be replaced by Gimp/Inkspace and the Ubuntu desktop would make Windows obsolete except for specific MS software/tasks. That never happened. The reason that never happened has nothing to do with the licenses. It happened because most purely open source programs have abysmal UX. Every time I open Inkscape…

I agree, and it would be nice to have those things done. Free software has a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem now where there is a lot of demand for certain things like you mention, but it's difficult to find funding to actually do them. I don't know what the way forward is, but it's something our community needs to be better about.

Open source and free software is thriving. Always have. Look around you. Look at what runs the internet you use. Look at the number of projects and the number of contributors.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#75
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want anyone to be able to do whatever they want to with my code. That includes developers wanting to create a proprietary application. Telling them they can't is not freedom. This is clearly up for debate. Software-freedom as an interesting social factor is first and foremost about users, not software-publishers. Basically as a user of free software, I should be free to modify the code of the program I'm using. W…

> is first and foremost about users No, it's about the software. Free software is free in the sense that it can't be owned, like a common good. Saying you shouldn't be able to own (i.e. control access to) software is very similar to the argument that you shouldn't be able to own land. This is a political ideal. The rationalization of that ideal is often made to be about the users but the benefits are indirect and whe…

> EDIT: Pragmatically IMO the freedom of the end user matters less because they need more than just access to the source code to derive any value of having that access, whereas for a downstream developer the value of being able to do as they please is extremely direct.

Again, like I said, that's clearly debatable.

First I think we need to shoehorn some terminology into this conversation in order for it to be useful.

You have two clearly distinct roles. You call them "developer" and "user", but that's really imprecise and doesn't correctly capture the use-cases which we're discussing, so here's my attempt:

* A publisher (what you call a "developer", someone who releases software, different software, one which will have to "deal" with reciprocal licenses).

* A user (one which runs software, usually on devices he own).

It may not be the norm, but a user may very well build and modify the software he uses (that is: do development work), and submit patches back upstream (instead of forking/bundling the code and modifications in another product). So while clearly a developer, he is first and foremost a user, and he doesn't need to care about licensing, since he doesn't actually release anything on his own.

Example: As a user of a device I buy, I want to be able to modify and replace its firmware when I find it lacking. In this case I'm a user, not a developer, at least not until the need arises.

And a "normal user" may not be able to do all these things, but as others have noted, there may be a pre-existing development community which has pre-modified builds available (like Cyanogendmod, OpenWrt, Coreboot, whatever).

In that sense, things being open to me, the user, the owner of the device running the code, has an high value anyhow. Not having control over what runs on my devices is unacceptable in a post-Snowden, emerging IoT-ridden world.

And I think those concerns are much more important for the IoT-everywhere world we're moving into, than some mere licensing inconveniences for publishers when they free of charge incorporate other people's work into their own product.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#76
post #55

I think there's two split types of developers. When I was younger, mostly hanging around on IRC servers and forums, coding just my own cool projects, I strongly believed in the GPL. All of my projects had it, and I wouldn't even dream of allowing someone to use my code without making their entire project open too. That's the first type I think. The second type is the more HN-style professional programmer. Now as I've…

“If a man is not a socialist when he is 20, he has no heart. If he is not a conservative by the time he is 40, he has no brain.” - Winston Churchill I think this sums it up.

Somewhat OT. Winston Churchill may very well have said that, but variations of that quote where circulating in France in the late 19th century.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#77

I've always likened GPL promoters and promoters of the more permissive licenses to conservatives vs liberals. GPL users are more worried about someone taking and not giving back. Other license users are more worried about lost opportunity to proliferate. In the same way, conservatives are more worried about bad behavior among their fellow citizens, whereas liberals are more worried about lost opportunities for their…

Your observations don't correlate with the actual political opinions of prominent advocates of what boils down to the ages-old free software vs open source split. You don't need to look further than ESR for a striking counterexample.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you correctly say, if you want anyone to be able to do whatever, you're right with choosing a permissive (non-reciprocal) license. GPL cares about the users of the software, not only the developers, and makes sure that, if they receive some software, they also get the source.

Non-developers don't care about the source.

Even if you are not a developer, having the source makes it possible to hire someone else to accomplish a task.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#79
I would not use GPL for my projects, because I can not use GPL licensed libraries in work. We use plenty of Apache licensed libs, therefore when I did open source contributions I contributed back to that pool. It was no brainer to me.

I also like the freedom in it - GPL is a bit about forcing people to do things your way because ideology which is attitude I find offputing. Apache is less political and more giving - here is a thing use it.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#80
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a huge supporter of GPLv3 and license most of my open source work with it. Still, the Linux kernel has been famously v2, and macos has removed as much v3 work as possible (to the point of using very outdated versions of many packages including bash). Things like CLang/LLVM, and don't get me wrong, they're technologically amazing, still have a huge focus of not being in the GPL world. Back in the early 2000s, the…

> Things like CLang/LLVM, and don't get me wrong, they're technologically amazing, still have a huge focus of not being in the GPL world. This is one of the key things. Generally, I see that BSD/MIT/ISC/Apache licensed software is made by people who just want to make amazing things, and let other people make amazing things with what they've made. The license is just a way to make their code (which is the focus) avail…

> For GPL, it seems like a lot of people (including RMS) value the license more than absolute code quality. They would rather have worse software, under their idealogical license, than use better software under a less restrictive license.

RMS wants free software to be as good as non-free. He realizes that takes a lot of work, which he has dedicated his life to. We all realize it takes a lot of work, the difference is, some of us are willing to put in the work.

That said, sometimes the "ideology" behind a thing is important. Personally, there are certain products I don't buy, certain companies I don't endorse, becaues I don't want that blood on my hands.

And yes, BSD is a great license for people (companies) who just wants to profit off others' (work) and never give back.

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