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Is the GPL Really Declining?

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21–30 of 242 posts

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#21
There was a time when it seemed inconceivable that developers would be motivated to release code under MIT or BSD style licenses that lacked the "viral" distribution obligations of the GPL. Back then, it seemed obvious that a healthy open source community was going to need to force "borrowers" of the code to contribute their improvements in order to avoid freeloading. However, the reality is that plenty of healthy open source communities exist on MIT style licenses and even include corporate community members who are willing to subsidize improvements that get merged into the public editions. In this way, the "failure" of GPL is a story about people behaving well as a community without needing to have legal whips cracked at them

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#22

I think there's two split types of developers. When I was younger, mostly hanging around on IRC servers and forums, coding just my own cool projects, I strongly believed in the GPL. All of my projects had it, and I wouldn't even dream of allowing someone to use my code without making their entire project open too. That's the first type I think. The second type is the more HN-style professional programmer. Now as I've…

>I feel we've lost ourselves in the freedom of users and forgotten about the people that make the applications for the users.

To me the issue with the GPL is that it is incredibly dated; it was designed for the time back when the users were more often than not a developer. Things change in 30 years and the GPL has completely failed to adapt IMO.

I see far more MIT and Apache than all version of the GPL these days, especially since I gave up on GNU/Linux distributions (and helping out working on them) on the desktop a few years ago.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#23

I think there's two split types of developers. When I was younger, mostly hanging around on IRC servers and forums, coding just my own cool projects, I strongly believed in the GPL. All of my projects had it, and I wouldn't even dream of allowing someone to use my code without making their entire project open too. That's the first type I think. The second type is the more HN-style professional programmer. Now as I've…

>The GPL licence just causes more pain and frustration to developers.

I don't think this is true. It's not particularly hard for developers to comply with it, especially those who are used to operating in an environment where most software is proprietary. This is the world where corporate licenses and contracts end up regularly end up into triple-digit page lengths. It's where the answer from management to the question "can we use this third party software?" usually defaults to no regardless of the license. So as long as there is this kind of restrictive proprietary licensing, I believe there will be a need for copyleft to counterbalance it. Sometimes there is a real risk of a rogue organization trying to take free (libre) code in order to crush the community with it.

The fact that there is so much software out there that uses non-copyleft free software licenses I think is testament to how many, many of our techniques and algorithms have become trivial and commonplace. This is good that friction is being removed in these cases, no matter what license the downstream developers are planning on using. It's the sign of a mature industry.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#24
post #7

I think it's important to separate the GPLv2 which is still vital and alive, and the GPL v3 which is now generally regarded to have been a failure.

GPL 3 was about naking abuse and exploitation of GPL 2 harder. Seeing it as a failure shows our industry in a very sad light. This might ve a bit melodramatic way to state it, but GPL 3 failing means evil thriumphing.

It boils down to a philosophical question about whether "tivoization" is good or bad. I am with Linus on this, I believe it is nothing wrong with it and I therefore doesn't support GPL v3.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#25
The last time I went through my employer's process for releasing an open source project, the attorney assigned to our case emailed to ask if we really wanted to choose the GPL, as we'd stated on the application form, because getting approval for MIT or Apache was going to be quicker.

We advised that yes, we did want the GPL, and indeed we didn't run into any further problems.

Keeping up the good fight in the midst of a megacorp, one tiny little utility at a time...

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#26
post #19

Seems to be a dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14257316 Did detection fail?

No, the dupe detector was changed about a year ago to allow for resubmission of articles that failed to gain traction. If you have questions for the mods, email them. Discussing the dupe detector is off-topic and boring.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#27

I think there's two split types of developers. When I was younger, mostly hanging around on IRC servers and forums, coding just my own cool projects, I strongly believed in the GPL. All of my projects had it, and I wouldn't even dream of allowing someone to use my code without making their entire project open too. That's the first type I think. The second type is the more HN-style professional programmer. Now as I've…

I totally understand where you're coming from and I shared some of this. I still believe heavily in the GPL and I think more permissive license have allowed a lot of companies to wave the banner of OSS while not having to really contribute things back to the community. I come from a perspective of hating the corporate world for the two decades I've been in it; feeling deeply overpaid compared to the guy who cleans my…

> I think more permissive license have allowed a lot of companies to wave the banner of OSS while not having to really contribute things back to the community.

Another way to look at this is that it has allowed companies to contribute to open source at all.

We'll never see how the industry would have developed if there had only been GPL and closed source with nothing in between but I believe we're better off this way because I don't think enough closed source companies would have made the jump to GPL.

Right now I'm using an open source OS published by a commercial company, running an open source browser published by a commercial company and make my living developing software using open source libraries published by commercial companies. Most of the software these companies produce is open source and most of the open source software is non-GPL, yet they are enabling me to stand on their shoulders for free.

Political tangent: I think a pure GPL open source ecosystem is impossible in a capitalist environment. Much like Communism it only works when executed at a global scale to achieve the critical mass. If GPL is Communism, non-GPL open source is Democratic Socialism. Purists think it's a stopgap at best or distraction at worst, pragmatists see it as the only viable alternative to the tyranny of closed source.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#28

I think there's two split types of developers. When I was younger, mostly hanging around on IRC servers and forums, coding just my own cool projects, I strongly believed in the GPL. All of my projects had it, and I wouldn't even dream of allowing someone to use my code without making their entire project open too. That's the first type I think. The second type is the more HN-style professional programmer. Now as I've…

Very much this. If you make an open source library, and you don't intend to ever charge for it, then at least allow people to use it in their products, free or commercial, without having to open source the entire thing.

at least

At least? So the person already selflessly donated an open source library to the world, even if only usable if you comply with certain terms, and that's not enough? I frankly don't get this perspective at all.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#29
post #5

I think it's important to separate the GPLv2 which is still vital and alive, and the GPL v3 which is now generally regarded to have been a failure.

I am a huge supporter of GPLv3 and license most of my open source work with it. Still, the Linux kernel has been famously v2, and macos has removed as much v3 work as possible (to the point of using very outdated versions of many packages including bash). Things like CLang/LLVM, and don't get me wrong, they're technologically amazing, still have a huge focus of not being in the GPL world. Back in the early 2000s, the…

> Things like CLang/LLVM, and don't get me wrong, they're technologically amazing, still have a huge focus of not being in the GPL world.

This is one of the key things.

Generally, I see that BSD/MIT/ISC/Apache licensed software is made by people who just want to make amazing things, and let other people make amazing things with what they've made. The license is just a way to make their code (which is the focus) available to anyone, without legal questions.

For GPL, it seems like a lot of people (including RMS) value the license more than absolute code quality. They would rather have worse software, under their idealogical license, than use better software under a less restrictive license.

Re: Is the GPL Really Declining?

#30

I think there's two split types of developers. When I was younger, mostly hanging around on IRC servers and forums, coding just my own cool projects, I strongly believed in the GPL. All of my projects had it, and I wouldn't even dream of allowing someone to use my code without making their entire project open too. That's the first type I think. The second type is the more HN-style professional programmer. Now as I've…

Very much this. If you make an open source library, and you don't intend to ever charge for it, then at least allow people to use it in their products, free or commercial, without having to open source the entire thing.

Why?

Why not only let other people use it in their products, if they make their code available on the same basis as I released mine?

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