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Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

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Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#91
post #2

The apprenticeships are particularly important. Many brilliant friends of mine who failed university or even high school did an apprenticeship instead. Among them are CEOs, R&D managers and founders.

I've often idly wondered if you could do Software Development as an apprenticeship. Use industry tools in your work day, and theoretical computer science at night schools/block courses.

This is the case in France. I had three apprentices (huge software company) and one of them was hired afterwards. This is extremely useful (for both sides).

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that the US has a problem with too little accumulation of intergenerational wealth is patent nonsense. This is different from parent leaving you stock and bonds. Father dies, leaves company that makes engines to son and $50 million in cash because he has invested most in his company. IRS+State: son, you owe us half+ of what your father left you, or $1.1 Billion. If he borrows half of company's worth that's n…

> I'd look to lower the inheritance to children to say 10% and abolish trusts that fund generations of lazy, spoiled brats living from their great-great-grandfather's money. Exactly, these leeches have to be stopped. And the money could be instead put to some good common like free college, health care leveling the playing field for everyone.

The last thing America needs is more college.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#93

The article asks why there are so many successful mid-size companies in Germany, and it lists reasons such as continuity of leadership, scientific competencies, system of apprenticeships and others. I don't see how this answers the question in the title. How does the school of mathematics of the University of Goettingen help make German factory workers competitive with Chinese ones? Why aren't these companies moving…

I'm not an economy expert, but I'd say that the jobs that can be done with 'cheap labour' have already been moved to other countries long ago (at latest in the 90's after the reunification).

If you look at a typical German 'Mittelstand company', many look more like high-tec laboratories than typical factories from the inside, lots of robots, high automation, the people working there need to know the technology inside out, troubleshoot and fix problems quickly. That's difficult to get from a manufacturer on the other side of the globe who needs to juggle many different clients from all over the world.

And many German workers still have a certain loyalty to their company, since the company owner isn't some international celebrity CEO installed to squeeze the last bit of money out for 'shareholder value'.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#94
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that the US has a problem with too little accumulation of intergenerational wealth is patent nonsense. This is different from parent leaving you stock and bonds. Father dies, leaves company that makes engines to son and $50 million in cash because he has invested most in his company. IRS+State: son, you owe us half+ of what your father left you, or $1.1 Billion. If he borrows half of company's worth that's n…

I find it funny just how much public mindshare the Estate Tax gets in the US: "only the largest 0.2% of estates in the US will have to pay any estate tax" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_tax_in_the_United_State... The estate tax is there to stop (or at least slow) the systemic rise of a new monied aristocracy. In any case, if you want to leave loads of money to your kids, the answer is "don't wait until you die"…

In the US, we have a gift tax which places a $14K/year maximum on parents giving to their children.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_tax_in_the_United_States

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've often idly wondered if you could do Software Development as an apprenticeship. Use industry tools in your work day, and theoretical computer science at night schools/block courses.

You can in Germany. It's called Fachinformatiker für Anwendungsentwicklung.

The English certificate translates it as "Computer Science Expert / Software Development".

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#96
post #72
post #33

Maybe the globalized world at any one time can only sustain one Germany with it's hidden champions. But ofcourse it's easier and well paying to travel around the world and tell everyone they can be like Germany too.

The world can sustain more than one because it already does. Switzerland has a very similar structure and is as successful, if not even more successful. It also shows that Germany doesn't just succeed because of a cheap exchange rate, since most products hidden champions produce aren't that price sensitive. The world could probably sustain even more companies that focus on long term growth and quality instead of quic…

As a German I of course (quite irrationally) like the praise for "my" country (I actually feel I'm human, and being German is just birth luck, especially since I benefited enormously from the reunification).

On the other hand, OP has a point. This is once more an example of what works for anyone vs. what works for everyone. The countries you name all are very small. Imagine Asia getting even better (they probably will), and imagine African countries getting their act together (as unlikely though it may be). Who would buy all those machines and parts?

Also, another great potential for future trouble is that an oversized part of our economy is bound to making cars. The "Zulieferers" (component suppliers) are much larger than the actual car makers, and they are all "Mittelstand". If they have to find new customers some day... electrical cares require a lot less expertise and less parts I'm told, plus ever more "growth", meaning ever more cars, isn't such a promising model (looking at Asian city traffic...).

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#97

> The high taxes on assets in France and the inheritance tax in the U.S. prevent the accumulation of capital necessary for the formation of a strong mid-sized sector. How can you write stuff like that and stay serious?

By ignoring things like this I suppose - https://econoblog101.wordpress.com/2015/09/15/income-inequal...

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#98
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most cars (from my experience) in Germany have separate tyres for winter, so changing them is something you need to do twice a year. Back in New Zealand I drove for about 12 years and never had to change a tyre.

Most people do it in autoshop

Ah ok, just based on my so far limited experience here, people have done it on their own.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#99
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah except being able to catch, clean and cook your food is still a valuable skill. However I would say there are more Americans who can do that than Germans... It's hard as hell to get a hunting license in Germany.

I suppose it's useful if you're really into wild camping. Realistically how often would the average person, even someone living in a rural state, need to catch, clean and cook their own food? How many decades has it been since a significant portion of the population has needed that skill? Probably several generations at least. I bet less than a fraction of a percent of the population lives in a situation such that th…

The moment it really matters- every day you walk away from and the day after.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#100
post #2

The apprenticeships are particularly important. Many brilliant friends of mine who failed university or even high school did an apprenticeship instead. Among them are CEOs, R&D managers and founders.

I've often idly wondered if you could do Software Development as an apprenticeship. Use industry tools in your work day, and theoretical computer science at night schools/block courses.

I don't think software is much different from anything else in this respect. You could learn any job assuming you're fairly intelligent and being taught by somebody decent. In not sure why we churn out degrees now instead of apprenticeships. I assume it's an equilibrium where The quality of people coming out of school is "good enough" that it saves the company money on training.

If you look at it as a way of companies forcing people to pay for their own training, the proper way to bring apprenticeships back is to make college more selective or expensive. This would increase upward mobility for those that can't afford school by forcing companies to train their employees again. However it would probably be seen as an attack on the poor and minorities for making college more exclusive.

Put differently, the increased accessibility of college has killed informal forms of education. To undo this would mean making college elitist again because the widespread nature of college education is what causes companies to hire only graduates.

Another factor in the downfall of apprenticeships is the inability to weed out people unlikely to succeed because of discrimination laws. In the past it was common to get engineering apprenticeships off the street IF you could pass a series of tests. IQ especially has a strong correlation to job success, and only taking say the top 10% of scores made apprenticeships much more likely to succeed (and less expensive for the company). These tests were found to be biased against minorities and women so disappeared in the 60's, around the same time college education became popular among the middle class.

Correlation isn't causation of course, so I can only speculate on these being driving forces behind the end of job training. Looking back at Germany, an interesting twist is that education is free but the acceptance rate low. Basically college in Germany is elitist, and if my theory holds water this would lead to more on the job training.

Another somewhat depressing thing to keep in mind is that HN is a bubble. You need to be fairly smart to be an effective engineer. Most are significantly smarter than the average person, and by popular accounts an odd bunch. It might seem reasonable to people like us to teach people to code by osmosis but to most people programming is incomprehensible and unenjoyable. I saw this first hand in primary school where software programming was an elective. There were 30 or so students in the class and only three of us had any idea what we were doing and interest in writing code.

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