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How to Get into VR

blog.ycombinator.com

141–150 of 221 posts

Re: How to Get into VR

#141

There seems to be certain momentum behind VR development, but I'm afraid it will fizzle out on mass market. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it (talk about VR) reminds me a lot of talk about VR in 90's, just on a larger scale. I hope I'm wrong, I just don't see it now for some reason. Maybe if it dies out a bit and then another wave comes around with improved tech and maybe riding on the haptics of the future..…

This time phones and China exist. Phones will continue to drive display and other tech. China has a dynamic manufacturing sector, to keep churning headsets. And has internet cafes, to support game dev. And VR seems to be catching on in US non-governmental industries like realty.

This VR wave seems much more a "look what we can do with current societal phone experience, and phone manufacturing tech", than a "let's struggle again to make something novel and hope it catches on".

As for AR, how about this - picture sitting down at your work desktop/laptop screen(s), and having lower-than-screen-resolution 3D, with direct hand manipulation, surround you. Not interested?

What else might go badly? The patent trolls are spinning up - BillGates/IntellectualVentures have announced it as a focus. But asia seems still insulated enough to keep going, even if the US sidelines itself. A media freakout seems increasingly unlikely (about VR at least), and would be limited to the US. A game market may grow more slowly than expected, but no longer seems able to vanish. What else?

So while takeoff trajectory is perhaps uncertain, I'm having trouble seeing how this wave might fizzle?

Re: How to Get into VR

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a professional VR developer I'm unaware of this crisis. There's also about as many headsets sold as people thought there would be (and way more GearVR's than expected). I haven't gotten sick from a VR experience (that I wasn't half-way through building) in over a year. The headsets are good enough that they don't make you sick by default (like they used to) and to make somebody sick you have to go against best des…

I'm not a VR developer, but from an outside perspective it actually looks like there are a few different crises. 1) Developers seem to be interested in heavyweight VR systems like Vive and Rift, while users (based on sales figures, anyway) seem to be interested in inexpensive, cordless systems like GearVR and Cardboard. Which leads to the awkward situation where all the innovative software is coming out for hardware…

The weight issue (actually, distribution of pressure and weight) was pretty much solved years ago: It was called the Forte VFX1:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VFX1_Headgear

The display itself could "flip up" so if you were doing world building back in the day - you could continue to use your keyboard and see your monitor, then "flip down" to try your world out.

Bad part about the system was the terrible FOV combined with very low res...

Re: How to Get into VR

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

immersive concerts - TheWaveVR [0] reinvented museums - TiltBrush [1] court-side sporting events - NextVR [2] Not to mention architecture [3], communication [4], collaboration [5], medicine [6], 3d modeling [7], game development [8], film [9] and the myriad of other industries I'm forgetting. Also if you haven't tried any of the latest games on Oculus Rift or Vive you're really missing out. They've gotten incredible…

I've found the gaming experiences pretty mediocre. It's $900 + big clunky thing on your head vs $500 for a really nice 4k monitor. Something like Onward is pretty special for its realism, but its not a better game than Rainbow Six was 20 years ago. There are some other fun games but the novelty wears off quickly. It's like a really expensive ($1300 setup) Wii. The current experiences aren't worth the money.

I've barely played a single non-VR since I got VR. That's going back to mid-October 2016 so hardly a flash in the pan.

Re: How to Get into VR

#144
I've always been sceptical of VR. As much as I was amazed by Oculus the first time I tried it, I never thought it was going to catch on. All for the sole reason that humans do not like to have things on their faces.

Any technology that needs to mount on the user's face will have to propose a huge value proposition.

Re: How to Get into VR

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found the gaming experiences pretty mediocre. It's $900 + big clunky thing on your head vs $500 for a really nice 4k monitor. Something like Onward is pretty special for its realism, but its not a better game than Rainbow Six was 20 years ago. There are some other fun games but the novelty wears off quickly. It's like a really expensive ($1300 setup) Wii. The current experiences aren't worth the money.

One issue with VR is the market is so small, the quality of even the best games is relatively low. Onward is basically made by one person, and although you cannot directly compare Onward's development with Rainbow 6 in 1998, mostly because of easy and cheap availability of 3D engines and assets, the original Rainbow 6 had a significantly larger team, budget and sold roughly 10x ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Cla…

VR is the same as any other gaming market.

It is a two sided market, with a chicken and egg problem.

Gamemakers don't want to invest in a market with very few consumers, and consumers don't want to invest in a headset with very few games.

Re: How to Get into VR

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's $800 + tax for the Vive (you probably want to buy some light stands, too). What's the Rift at that price missing compared to the Vive?

There's a real Hyundai/Honda relationship here. They're similar products but the Vive has a slight edge as the more premium VR headset. The lighthouse based tracking is rock-solid while the CV based tracking of the Rift has been historically iffy. Worse, you'll need to spring for a 3rd camera if you want to get serious about roomscale. So that's another $79. The Vive already has an accessory ecosystem as companies ar…

Sigh. Each HMD has pros and cons. You do the industry a disservice by warping facts.

Lighthouse tracking is indeed excellent, and tracks a larger volume. However, the Rift's sensor approach is /currently/ almost indistinguishable from Vive's tracking. Its historical performance, significantly hampered by a bad software update, has no relevance to someone considering an HMD today.

A third sensor is only $59, not $79. Saying "worse, you'll need to spring for..." implies this is somehow a severe negative, when the reality is that the extra cost of a third sensor still leaves the Rift over $100 less than a Vive (the magnitude of price difference depends on shipping costs and how you value the bundles of free software).

Again, while Lighthouse tracking can be considered "more premium", the general consensus is that the Rift has more fit and finish, is significantly lighter in the front and thus more balanced, has better optics (larger sweet spot and less screen door effect), and the convenient integrated audio (which can be removed if you have high-end headphones) all lead to it being thought of as "more premium" in other ways. The Vive's design, while exceedingly functional, is more "hacker chic" than "honed design".

Of course, the above positives on the Rift are traded off by a slightly smaller field of view, a somewhat dimmer screen, and less compatibility with glasses vs. the Vive.

Additionally, complaining about the cost of a third camera is disingenuous when you then talk about all of the other incremental (added cost) options available to the Vive. Some will come to Rift (e.g., wireless), some bring the Vive to parity (e.g., thinner cable, comfort gaskets, and [unmentioned] a more comfortable head strap with integrated audio), and some are truly cool (e.g., eye tracking and trackers) for those wishing to really be at the cutting edge of VR. But all significantly increase the cost delta.

Finally, implying something nefarious about the "encrypted connection to Facebook's server" is really beneath the level of discourse I expect from HN. The Oculus software checks for updates over a TLS-encrypted session - that is all, as has been confirmed by network analysis. Frankly, I would be upset if it didn't use encryption to protect my information.

The Vive is a fine product, and stands on its own. You do not need to provide misleading or biased information about its competitor to promote it.

The fact is, both HMDs are great. Do you have a 15'x15' space? Buy a Vive. Is price a factor, or do you run on lower-end hardware? Buy a Rift.

Otherwise, try them both, see which fits your face better, see which trade-offs work for you, and buy the one that makes you happy.

You can't go wrong, and VR is SPECTACULAR.

Re: How to Get into VR

#147
post #140

To learn shader programming, check out ShaderToy https://www.shadertoy.com/ its insane how short some of these implementation are.

I'm not a shader programmer, but I think the key to making proper shaders is to understand that the shaders are a parallel computational system based on vector/matrix math (linear algebra), and being able to conceptualize how to use that for graphic purposes (within the context of a pixel vs vertex shader). It seems that some people (software developers) can do this, and others struggle. Myself, I'm kinda in the midd…

That's only a part of the story. The linear algebra and the GPU execution model are like the first step. To write a shader, you have to understand quite a few things about light, materials etc which is the hard part.

Re: How to Get into VR

#148
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ready Player One nailed the only use case that might be a game changer for VR: remote schools. Edison thought education would be the killer app for the phonograph. Zworykin thought it would be the killer app for TV. The One Laptop Per Child people thought it would be the killer app for laptops. The tablet people thought it would be the killer app for tablets. Education doesn't seem to be a technology problem. Would U…

> The One Laptop Per Child people thought it would be the killer app for laptops. No, they didn't. They thought laptops would be a useful enabling technology for a particular model of education, but did not think that education would be the killer app for laptops (a product that was so we'll established by that time that thinking about it even needing a "killer app" at that point is senseless.)

http://pages.ucsd.edu/~bgoldfarb/comt109w10/reading/Kraemer-...

>Negroponte seems to question whether teachers are needed at all. Speaking about providing the rural poor a solid educational basis for development at the 2007 Digital, Life, Design conference in Munich, Germany, Negroponte said: “It’s not about training teachers. It’s not about building schools. With all due respect [to Hewlett-Packard’s e-inclusion efforts], it’s not about curriculum or content. It’s about leveraging the children themselves.

>David Cavallo, OLPC’s chief education architect, says, “We’re hoping that these countries won’t just make up ground but will jump into a new educational environment.”

The OLPC people thought they were going to cause a literal, actual revolution in learning. Didn't happen.

Re: How to Get into VR

#149

> The development of VR has been surprisingly tied to science fiction. Authors in the field have envisioned the futures that engineers set out to build Incidentally, the high romanticism of VR one of the reasons why I am highly skeptical of the industry. The article argues "VR will also enable immersive concerts, reinvented museums, and live, court-side sporting events", but what is it doing now outside of games, whi…

We have paying customers for our VR surgical training - ossovr.com - I left the games industry in 2014 to work on non games VR applications because I believed (and still believe) that commercial applications of VR will be more profitable in the near term than games. Architecture is another field that is seeing rapid adoption of VR as a real business tool and not just a gimmick.

Have you guys experimented with LeapMotion?

Re: How to Get into VR

#150
Just wanted to add my voice to the author's plug for Rainbows End (book). Although I didn't find the story especially engagin, the technological ideas and perspective on VR were inspiring. Bonus if you're into genetics or bioinformatics at all (similar to Jurassic Park in that respect).
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