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How to Get into VR

blog.ycombinator.com

131–140 of 221 posts

Re: How to Get into VR

#131

> VR is a new medium This is just blatantly not true, at least not on the implied timescale. VR has been around for literally decades, including immersive VR with head and hand tracking. I know because I used it in 1998. The current VR hype cycle is based on this all having gotten a lot cheaper and faster. To top it off, listing Snow Crash and Neuromancer as suggested reading is just silly. Those are the exact same b…

The folks coming from film/video to VR speak of it as a new medium. Describing it as analogous to the early days of cinema, before the now familiar cinematic idioms had been developed. The folks working on WebVR say similar things wrt web idioms. And, to a perhaps lesser extent, gamedevs do too (motion, controls, showing state, haptics, accessing inventory, etc). And almost none of these communities were active in past VR waves.

So perhaps you and the article are using the phrase "new medium" differently.

Re: How to Get into VR

#132
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CEO of unity believes that AR/VR will be bigger than the internet and develop in much the same way [1]. Obviously he is biased but still pretty big statement from a CEO of the most popular game engine. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODXMhaNIF5E

Bit of a cringey statement to say "bigger than the internet" considering almost every AR/VR application will rely heavily on the internet. I think the spirit of his statement was that it'll be bigger than the Web.

Not really, platforms like the hololens are essentially the Commodore 64 of AR. It's neat, and has some practical application, but it can't quite deliver on its full potential. I don't know which AR headset will be the Windows/Apple of this technology but I can describe it. Lightweight, stylish, essentially a smartphone on your face.

What AR not-so-obviously does is takes the internet and changes it from a limited access interface, wherein its a technology that has points of access that are limited to terminals that you have to actively access to an interface that you passively interact with.

An interface that you have to seek out, to an interface that seeks you out.

Re: How to Get into VR

#133
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's $900 The Oculus Rift is $500, $598 with the Touch controllers and and extra sensor.[1] [1]: https://www.oculus.com/cart/

It's $800 + tax for the Vive (you probably want to buy some light stands, too). What's the Rift at that price missing compared to the Vive?

Vive tracking is better for room scale (Oculus doesn't handle facing away from the cameras well in a standard two camera setup and three camera tracking is still a bit experimental, plus it can be trickier to get the floor calibrated at the right position).

In most other respects Oculus is a bit better than Vive IMO: better ergonomics/comfort on both the Rift headset and Touch controllers, built in headphones (a big plus for convenience and comfort over the Vive), easier setup, slightly better optics, better handling of dropped frames thanks to timewarp.

Re: How to Get into VR

#134

> The development of VR has been surprisingly tied to science fiction. Authors in the field have envisioned the futures that engineers set out to build Incidentally, the high romanticism of VR one of the reasons why I am highly skeptical of the industry. The article argues "VR will also enable immersive concerts, reinvented museums, and live, court-side sporting events", but what is it doing now outside of games, whi…

CAVE virtual reality[1][2] has been available for quite some time, and has quite a lot of industry penetration. There are multiple off-the-shelf software and hardware packages available, and it's fairly commonly used in the automotive industry.

It's quite something to use one of these systems, I was responsible for maintaining one a few years ago. Our demonstration trick for visiting guests was to put a chair inside the cave that matched the coordiantes of a virtual helicopter cockpit command chair. We could sit guests in the chair, turn the system on, and ask them if they could comfortably reach the switches above their heads. They'd stretch out their hands and be able to give a confident yes or no within seconds.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_automatic_virtual_environ... [2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STMcWUtQr1Y

Re: How to Get into VR

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a VR developer, but from an outside perspective it actually looks like there are a few different crises. 1) Developers seem to be interested in heavyweight VR systems like Vive and Rift, while users (based on sales figures, anyway) seem to be interested in inexpensive, cordless systems like GearVR and Cardboard. Which leads to the awkward situation where all the innovative software is coming out for hardware…

What's possible on a high-end rig today will be possible on on a phone within 2 years.

I was at a Boston VR[0] meetup last week, that was lifestreamed via youtube[1] to AltspaceVR[2]. An organizer used a recent Samsung phone in a Daydream headset (which has a closed back), to host the VR space. The biggest problem seemed the low duty cycle - use it for a few minutes, then take the phone out to cool down. Some demo setups at the recent VRLA Expo, had a small fan attached to the phone. So will we see a GTX 1060 equivalent on a flagship phone in 2 years... maybe? But I was struck by how far we've come already.

[0] https://www.meetup.com/Boston-Virtual-Reality/ [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iGszROz58U [2] https://altvr.com/

Re: How to Get into VR

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there are much fewer applications of VR "now", but let's consider its timeline: the first mainstream HMD (Oculus Rift) was released in 2012. Last year (2016) was the first time that hand-tracking was introduced by Oculus and HTC. If anything is holding back the industry right now, it's the lack of content, but keep in mind that we are still incredibly early!

The timeline goes further back than 2012... VR has been around for what, 30+ years?

VR as we know it today basically started when NASA built a rig sometime in the 1980s, using portable "pocket" TVs for the screens (Casio brand, IIRC). You can find pictures of these early systems (as well as early VPL datagloves) with a google search of course.

Before that, there was Ivan Sutherland's "Sword of Damocles" - arguably the real beginning of AR/VR (Philco had an earlier system, but it was meant for tele-operation, whereas Sutherland's system used computer generated graphics):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sword_of_Damocles_(virtual...

Interestingly about this system - and isn't mentioned much - is a part of it called the "Twinkle Box" - it was a three-dimensional position tracking system that used light "beams" (generated by some form of slit-scanning mechanical system) to track an object...sound like anything familiar?

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1500278

Further back than that? Well - Hugo Gernsback had some kind of idea about a TV or such you strapped to your head:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2010/05/ralph-124c-41-a-...

Re: How to Get into VR

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

immersive concerts - TheWaveVR [0] reinvented museums - TiltBrush [1] court-side sporting events - NextVR [2] Not to mention architecture [3], communication [4], collaboration [5], medicine [6], 3d modeling [7], game development [8], film [9] and the myriad of other industries I'm forgetting. Also if you haven't tried any of the latest games on Oculus Rift or Vive you're really missing out. They've gotten incredible…

> court-side sporting events I still want to stand on the 50 yard line during a live game, or position myself wherever the action is, with fully realized 3D models of the players.

That sounds like what virtually live is promising: http://virtuallylive.com/

Re: How to Get into VR

#138

> The development of VR has been surprisingly tied to science fiction. Authors in the field have envisioned the futures that engineers set out to build Incidentally, the high romanticism of VR one of the reasons why I am highly skeptical of the industry. The article argues "VR will also enable immersive concerts, reinvented museums, and live, court-side sporting events", but what is it doing now outside of games, whi…

I think it might be interesting to have VR use in the military. For example, small unmanned recon drones fly/move through an area, get a very detailed virtual environment, and then mission participants get a walk-through beforehand.

DARPA has been using VR since at least the 90s for training.

One of the main players in that area is a man named "Rudy Darken"; he was instrumental in quite a bit of the "Dismounted Soldier Training System (DSTS)" - and developed quite a few interesting input devices (one was a 360 degree treadmill with force feedback - think of two overlapping treadmills at 90 degrees to each other, with the surface made of rollers place parallel to the direction of travel of the belts - the part in the "center" of the intersection is such where you can walk, and move both belts at the same time, and your direction of walking determines the relative speed of the belts).

They've also long had networked simulator training systems, which also were setup to participate as part of "real" on-the-ground training and war-game simulations (that is, ones using live bodies and vehicles, aircraft, etc).

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if your scenario wasn't part of that already.

Re: How to Get into VR

#139
post #79
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what's funny? I actually think Ready Player One nailed the only use case that might be a game changer for VR: remote schools. You can just make all learning materials virtual. VR school means no physical real estate, buses, cafeterias, bullying, janitors, you can cut like 90% of support staff, the list goes on. Also if you divide people by location (like we do now) you can still coordinate field trips and/or…

Ready Player One nailed the only use case that might be a game changer for VR: remote schools. Edison thought education would be the killer app for the phonograph. Zworykin thought it would be the killer app for TV. The One Laptop Per Child people thought it would be the killer app for laptops. The tablet people thought it would be the killer app for tablets. Education doesn't seem to be a technology problem. Would U…

This may be OT and a bit ranty...my apologies:

I can't speak for Coursera, but Udacity would be much better if they didn't continue to muck with the platform as you are taking the course.

Seriously - things break all the time, then get fixed, etc; last big thing that happened - and I don't know exactly why, but it had to do with a large update to the site and course system I think - a big chunk of people from the second cohort (of which I am part of) in the Self-Driving Car Engineer Nanodegree - lost access to their original mentor. That might not sound like a big deal, but it kinda was. Then, to get access restored, you had to email one particular support address, that was only posted about (IIRC) in a Slack channel.

By the time I realized that the problem was more widespread than just a simple "service interruption" like everything else and emailed the support about it, they had already assigned the "max number" (whatever that is) of people to my original mentor that I had been communicating with and using since I started last year; I was reassigned a brand new mentor, who knows only what he sees about my progress, and nothing about the other communication and help I had from my former mentor.

It's a bit frustrating, but I'm adjusting to it as best as possible - I'm certainly not going to let it stop me from completing the course (still going strong in the second term, just finished the second project of the UKM and now working towards the localization project) - but I'd rather have a stable platform to work with, especially since I am spending so much money on the course.

/sorry about the rant

Re: How to Get into VR

#140

To learn shader programming, check out ShaderToy https://www.shadertoy.com/ its insane how short some of these implementation are.

I'm not a shader programmer, but I think the key to making proper shaders is to understand that the shaders are a parallel computational system based on vector/matrix math (linear algebra), and being able to conceptualize how to use that for graphic purposes (within the context of a pixel vs vertex shader).

It seems that some people (software developers) can do this, and others struggle. Myself, I'm kinda in the middle - then again, I haven't really tried anything with shaders beyond simple examples and such. But my "aha" moment in parallel calcs of this nature came to me during the course of the original 2011 ML Class (MOOC) taught by Andrew Ng - it used Octave as the programming language, and we had to implement a neural network.

The "serial implementation" was first implemented (and was really slow), but then we were "challenged" to do the same using only vector/matrix math. I struggled wrapping my head around it, but then a lightbulb went on, and I realized what it was all about. Granted, behind the scenes a still very-much serial process was happening (likely using BLAS), but I could understand the conceptual underpinnings (and that they applied to all similar parallel systems - like clustered processors and GPUs). It was a real revelation to me at the time.

Even so, there is something special about these people who can see and do similar things at a "frame buffer" level; some of that stuff is down-right beautiful and amazing to watch (and the code oftentimes so small, as you noted).

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