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I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

theguardian.com

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Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#71
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that pay day loans should be illegal or advertisements for them should? If not why not advertise them to the audience that is apparently interested in it?

There's a difference between an interest in yoga pants and an 'interest' in predatory loans or military service for lack of other options.

Yeah I get that it is unfortunate to say the least that people need/want these loans. However, what is the right thing to do about the loans? If they are predatory, maybe they should be illegal. But who am I to tell people what they can and cannot do with their money? That would be rather patronizing. If we assume that people getting these loans are grown adults why shouldn't we allow people offering them to advertise to the people most interested in them? Is it ethically "better" if even wealthy women from the Marina see the ads despite everyone knowing they don't care about pay day loans for purposes other than discussing then on HN? I think it's honestly a really hard ethical question that I don't see a obvious answer to.

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#72
post #62

>Why should those examples of targeting be viewed as any less ethical than, say, ads selling $100 Lululemon yoga pants targeting thirtysomething women in affluent postal codes like San Francisco’s Marina district? Because one can cause poverty and the other doesn't.

How does an ad cause poverty?

If it encourages someone to do something that will cause them to go into poverty, such as taking a payday loan they can't afford.

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#73
A little off-topic, but from the article:

> I’ll illustrate with an anecdote from my Facebook days. Someone on the data science team had cooked up a new tool that recommended Facebook Pages users should like. And what did this tool start spitting out? Every ethnic stereotype you can imagine. We killed the tool when it recommended then president Obama if a user had “liked” rapper Jay Z...

The author left Facebook in 2013 [0], so I had assumed by now Facebook could do a proper job of recommendations. It's been awhile since I've "Liked" a page, so I just tried it (In-N-Out Burger) and was extremely surprised to see that Facebook apparently still doesn't provide a popup for related pages I may also "Like", in the same way that Twitter does whenever you follow any user.

That's really surprising. For starters, Twitter has had user suggestions for several years now, and it has much less structured data to work with than Facebook does -- for example, a FB page can specify its category, address, and many other attributes; Twitter has nothing to go by other than user's name, account screen name, biography, a location field, and connection metadata (i.e. geolocated IP). Yet it's been awhile if ever since I've seen Twitter recommend someone truly off, e.g. President Obama and Jay-Z.

In contrast, Facebook provides a related stories feature for news stories a user shares in the feed - or at least it did before the fake news thing blew up. Is this a signal that Facebook doesn't really care about user engagement with brand pages? Or did the fuckup that the author describes make it so that this was a feature that no product manager wants to be associated with?

(Or it could be that I'm just missing the Related Pages feature. Maybe it shows up in mobile and not the browser version)

edit: It's strange that the feature doesn't exist in 2017, but this anecdote, as portrayed by the author, reflects badly on both Facebook's data science and the author. I mean, how is it possible for so many smart people to not figure out how to fix such undesired associations? There are so many other signals for clustering related users beyond similar followers.

edit 2: This feature does exist -- you have to like a post in your news feed (on the website), and then Facebook will append a "Related" box in your newsfeed. Unless your browser window is open particularly high, the fact that the "Related" box was triggered by the Like action is obfuscated (because it is out of view). Still doesn't explain why they couldn't make the feature work in 2012-2013.

edit 3: Appears author is wrong about the tool being "killed". Seems to still exist, though maybe it was only temporarily "killed"

http://www.adweek.com/digital/facebook-suggests-similar-page...

https://www.facebook.com/addpage

[0] https://www.linkedin.com/in/antongm/

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#74
This is a tricky problem in pretty much the entire consumer-facing ML space. For example, even if you don't feed in 'protected classes' - you can say 'the algo finds a way'. It might figure out a certain zip code won't pay back a loan, so it will down weight them accordingly - even though that zip may predominantly be one ethnicity. Is that discriminating on a protected class? Well, kinda. It's discriminating on a proxy for a protected class which, if we're getting technical, is really a (poor) proxy for cultural, genetic, and socio-economic backgrounds.

So it's in some ways 'more fair' but it does take away our ability to 'socially engineer' certain decisions by prohibiting use of one feature or another.

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#76
So yeah obviously Facebook like any other large advertising platform is gonna use its data for seedy means. What's crazy to me is that the author seems to be using the word 'ethics' synonymously with the concept of political correctness. As if he actually does not know the difference.

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#77
post #29
post #17

"We are not Facebook's customer. We are their product." I have stated that fact so many times to so many people, and yet most people don't care. They continue to use Facebook. It's almost as if people are addicted to Facebook.

We're both the customer and the product. I'm the product to advertisers, but also to my friends. Similarly I am the customer to the products that are my friends.

The product is bait.

You're keeping your friends there, they're keeping you there, and now the group of you brings in the bigger fish.

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#78
post #75

[deleted]

> If working at Facebook in 2011 gives you the self-perceived authority to talk about the company in 2017, I must be a world expert on the topic.

Not to nitpick, but the author worked at FB from 2011-2013. He was there when FB's ad platform really started to find legs.

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#79
post #73

A little off-topic, but from the article: > I’ll illustrate with an anecdote from my Facebook days. Someone on the data science team had cooked up a new tool that recommended Facebook Pages users should like. And what did this tool start spitting out? Every ethnic stereotype you can imagine. We killed the tool when it recommended then president Obama if a user had “liked” rapper Jay Z... The author left Facebook in 2…

[deleted]

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#80
post #62

>Why should those examples of targeting be viewed as any less ethical than, say, ads selling $100 Lululemon yoga pants targeting thirtysomething women in affluent postal codes like San Francisco’s Marina district? Because one can cause poverty and the other doesn't.

How does an ad cause poverty?

[deleted]
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