261–264 of 264 posts
Earlier quoted context omitted.
>On a species level we'll probably survive it This is an arrogant assumption. Another assumption, one I find more realistic, is that we're driving full-speed towards the cliff.
If this is true then I presume you are devoting all your waking hours to preventing it?
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I think he means that it's not spying or infiltration when the data is already there for everyone to see. You're not thinking clearly. It is infiltration because the person in question is pretending to be a member of Party A while actually being a supporter of Party B. The person is intending to deny members of Party A the ability to vote for the candidate of their choice in the actual election, forcing them to nom…
You're missing the point too. Your argument is that it's dishonest. Honesty is a moral concept, therefore subjective. But we'll assume you're right and that such action is objectively dishonest. An ends-justify-the-means approach means there's good parts, bad parts and a price to pay. The price is eternal remorse for such action. Now let's see the good and bad parts: Good: - We get science and belief out of the polit…
> You're missing the point too.
What I mean is, you're missing my point. Maybe I'm missing yours too, in which case we're talking past each other and should try to get on the same page.
> Your argument is that it's dishonest. Honesty is a moral concept, therefore subjective.
My argument is that the democratic process is built upon certain requirements of integrity or honesty. If these are undermined, the democratic process is undermined, and therefore the ability of the people to rule themselves is undermined.
My observation is that certain groups of people think that their undermining the democratic process is justified, because they think that their ends are worthy, and that their political opponents are unworthy of participating in the democratic process.
That, of course, is enormously arrogant, and dangerous to the long-term stability of the government. And by doing that, they endanger their own ability to participate in self-rule.
> An ends-justify-the-means approach means there's good parts, bad parts and a price to pay.
I think the "price to pay" includes "the bad parts." Of course, what belongs in which category is subjective.
> We get science and belief out of the political whims.
This is where I begin to not follow you. What do you mean? Everything we do is based on beliefs. Science is based on beliefs as well. Maybe by "beliefs" you mean "religion," in which case you should use that word.
> Science is not a competition.
Again, what do you mean by this? The scientific process is not a competition, but the practice of science in the world certainly involves competition at many levels.
> Science exists to serve us all equally.
Again, what do you mean by this? I think you are confounding ideals with reality. Science is essentially a method, a set of steps. It is up to the practitioner to apply it in a useful, ethical way.
> People learn about the issues instead of believing baseless tweets.
Again, not following you. By what means does this happen? This thread has been about (further) corrupting the political process by participating dishonestly. Are you saying that by doing that, people "learn about the issues instead of believing baseless tweets"?
> We're making the candidate think they have chances to win presidency, displacing other candidates of the party... I guess? I can't really think of a negative side to this. Nobody's hurt in the process. We're not breaking any law. The party still has the same overall views.
I'm rather floored by this. Do you actually not understand how corrupting the democratic process hurts everyone? You can't think of a negative side? There's not a law against it so it must be good? I feel like you're proving my observations correct...
> And the price to pay is based on one's feeling, not on any real consequence or law. It's not ends-justify-the-means. It's just "wrong" because you feel like it is.
I'm not sure if you're being facetious, casually dismissing my arguments as "feelings," or if you really believe that. If the former, you're being quite rude; if the latter, then I wonder if it's even possible for us to communicate, because you must be either unable or unwilling to comprehend what I'm saying. Unfortunately, it does not seem uncommon for those on the political left to dismiss their opponents arguments so casually.
But if you are here for honest, rational discussion, then I look forward to your reply.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're missing the point too. Your argument is that it's dishonest. Honesty is a moral concept, therefore subjective. But we'll assume you're right and that such action is objectively dishonest. An ends-justify-the-means approach means there's good parts, bad parts and a price to pay. The price is eternal remorse for such action. Now let's see the good and bad parts: Good: - We get science and belief out of the polit…
I'm afraid I don't follow your line of reasoning at all. > You're missing the point too. What I mean is, you're missing my point. Maybe I'm missing yours too, in which case we're talking past each other and should try to get on the same page. > Your argument is that it's dishonest. Honesty is a moral concept, therefore subjective. My argument is that the democratic process is built upon certain requirements of integr…
Assuming it's being undermined, I need an explanation of how.
> and that their political opponents are unworthy of participating in the democratic process
When was ever suggested the opponents are unworthy of participating? They will hear the fight for climate change and they can react appropriately. Either joining the cause or explaining why it shouldn't be joined. The kind of dialog the political system needs.
> Science is based on beliefs as well.
Last I checked, it was based on proofs and data.
Belief may be a catalyst to start the process and elaborate a hypothesis, but just that. If one gets stuck on belief, it's not science.
> Maybe by "beliefs" you mean "religion," in which case you should use that word.
I mean beliefs, like climate change being a hoax. That's not a conclusion of any study. That's a lie someone made up for political gain.
> The scientific process is not a competition,
That's what I mean. People don't decide what's the truth. Or at least they shouldn't, because the truth doesn't change when you change your beliefs.
There may be competitions against teams for a specific goal. But science is inherently non partisan, and the goal benefits us all.
> It is up to the practitioner to apply it in a useful, ethical way.
And what is unethical about preparing for a likely event that affects us all? What is ethical about preventing it?
> Again, not following you. By what means does this happen?
People believing Trump when he said climate change is a hoax.
> Do you actually not understand how corrupting the democratic process hurts everyone?
We have different meanings for "corruption". In my definition, it involves favoring a candidate for hidden interests. HIDDEN interests. Because the people wouldn't approve. Dishonesty. But if I go and tell everyone what I think about climate change, how is that dishonesty? How is that lying?
You see my point? Yes, I do agree honesty is important. But also subjective and I don't think this would be remotely dishonest.
And then you dare to talk about corruption, which caused this very issue we want to solve!
> casually dismissing my arguments as "feelings,"
Because it's a subjective interpretation. Dishonesty implies lying. And it would be a "lie" that offsets actual damaging lies wildly spreading around.
In any case, assuming it's unethical, we might be facing a dilemma, where we have to choose to deviate a train to kill one person (a very bad one and condemned to death, but a person after all), or not to touch the lever and kill 100 innocent people.
I think you're doing the latter by inaction, and condemning the former because it's unethical.
Vote is secret for a reason.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
NK having or not having nuclear weapons is a binary choice. AGW is multivariate. If temperature is rising, how much do we expect it to continue rising? If rising temperatures are due at least in part to CO2 emissions, then to what degree? How do we choose between the various complex climate models (indeed part of the reason we were so ill-prepared for Hurricane Katrina was that nobody considered the model that predic…
In the context of "Is AGW happening", your argument is not an honest argument, but an attempt to ask a thousand questions and try to drown the argument in the perception of uncertainty. In other words, FUD. But let me try to answer them as best as I can. > If temperature is rising, how much do we expect it to continue rising? It will keep rising as long as we keep generating CO2. > If rising temperatures are due at l…
Regulation is bad, taxation is theft, no government is good is all you're going to get from him.