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Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

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Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#91

Post by payne92 »

pc86 wrote: post #65

> The notice came from District Attorney Leon Cannizzaro’s office. His prosecutors are using these fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk to them — a tactic that defense lawyers and legal experts said is unethical, if not illegal. The fact that the DA's office, which does not issue subpoenas , can mail to witnesses a document which says "SUBPOENA" is bold lettering and threatens arrest, is not on its face obvio…

IANAL, but this likely meets the standards for FRAUD: "A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury."

Misrepresenting a court or court officer may have criminal penalties as well.

I hope the LA state bar is reviewing (or will review) the attorneys that have done this.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#92

Post by mcherm »

wccrawford wrote: post #77
pc86 wrote: post #65

> The notice came from District Attorney Leon Cannizzaro’s office. His prosecutors are using these fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk to them — a tactic that defense lawyers and legal experts said is unethical, if not illegal. The fact that the DA's office, which does not issue subpoenas , can mail to witnesses a document which says "SUBPOENA" is bold lettering and threatens arrest, is not on its face obvio…

Beyond the fact that it should be illegal, it's stupid . It's going to teach people that they might not have to comply with subpoenas because of all the fake ones. At the very least, people will be more inclined to wait until they have a lawyer before speaking with the police, which is the opposite of what they want. But it's also likely to cause people to ignore real subpoenas, which will not only hurt them but also…

I disagree.

It won't really harm the prosecutors and police. They'll still be able to bring the full force of the law against anyone who violates an actual subpoena. In fact, it allows them to successfully prosecute a few more people (those who didn't respond to a subpoena). And stories about THAT will just terrify people and make them more likely to comply with requests from police and prosecutors (because they don't know whether such requests have the force of law).

So the impact on society may be quite harmful, but the impact on PROSECUTORS is completely positive.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#93

Post by howard941 »

pc86 wrote: post #65

> The notice came from District Attorney Leon Cannizzaro’s office. His prosecutors are using these fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk to them — a tactic that defense lawyers and legal experts said is unethical, if not illegal. The fact that the DA's office, which does not issue subpoenas , can mail to witnesses a document which says "SUBPOENA" is bold lettering and threatens arrest, is not on its face obvio…

Sounds like time to lodge a complaint with the bar.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#94

Post by elipsey »

pc86 wrote: post #65

> The notice came from District Attorney Leon Cannizzaro’s office. His prosecutors are using these fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk to them — a tactic that defense lawyers and legal experts said is unethical, if not illegal. The fact that the DA's office, which does not issue subpoenas , can mail to witnesses a document which says "SUBPOENA" is bold lettering and threatens arrest, is not on its face obvio…

> If a defense attorney did something similar, Williams said, “I guarantee you this DA would try to prosecute that defense attorney.”

Who watches the watchers?

We know now that we need to look for something like a notary stamp and judge signature on a subpeona, but we will never be as sophisticated in this domain as the DA's office, so they can probably easily trick us in other ways. The lesson I am inclined to take from this is to avoid interacting with a DA without a lawyer, similar to an investigator or a "curious" or "friendly" police officer.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#95

Post by taormina »

Zak wrote: post #90
gonzo41 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats not the issue, Lawyers and the like are extremely resistant to digitization. If you said we'll have a live database of all active subpoenas that anyone could read the types of fights you'd have with the legal profession would astound you. Everything runs on written signed letters and the post. Interesting fact, Barristers used to get paid by the inch of paper in their brief, so when you read old law and its ver…

Everything runs on written signed letters and the post. If you have relevant insight, why is that? Digitization makes most information-oriented work easier and it stands to reason this would be true for law as well.

Well, the lawyers should know that digitizing it means that they are liable and provably so.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#96

Post by [deleted] »

Zak wrote: post #90
gonzo41 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats not the issue, Lawyers and the like are extremely resistant to digitization. If you said we'll have a live database of all active subpoenas that anyone could read the types of fights you'd have with the legal profession would astound you. Everything runs on written signed letters and the post. Interesting fact, Barristers used to get paid by the inch of paper in their brief, so when you read old law and its ver…

Everything runs on written signed letters and the post. If you have relevant insight, why is that? Digitization makes most information-oriented work easier and it stands to reason this would be true for law as well.

[deleted]

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#97

Post by scrps »

When a Prosecutor's ambition is tied to a career path that demands high win/loss records, a "tough on crime" stance and constant but misinformed public scrutiny (Nancy Grace, fetishized true-crime shows, etc, I don't mean real journalism.) you are going to get misconduct and corruption as a career advancement strategy.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#98

Post by klenwell »

tcj_phx wrote: post #3

Prosecutors have a tough job. Prosecuting people who've hurt other people is the easy part of their job. Prosecuting people who haven't hurt anyone but themselves (self-medication w/ the street pharmacy), or who've become dependent on alcohol just to feel 'normal' [1]... Maybe prosecutors have to have a cruel streak to stick with the job after the novelty wears off. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14085230 S…

A cruel streak perhaps, but even more problematic: a perverse incentive.

Came across an interesting somewhat contrarian argument recently in a New Yorker article reviewing a new book about mass incarceration in America:

So what makes for the madness of American incarceration? If it isn’t crazy drug laws or outrageous sentences or profit-seeking prison keepers, what is it? Pfaff has a simple explanation: it’s prosecutors. They are political creatures, who get political rewards for locking people up and almost unlimited power to do it.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/04/10/how-we-misunder...

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#100

Post by cmdrfred »

macintux wrote: post #83
cmdrfred wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>After all, somebody abusing someone else likely doesn't handle stress and anger appropriately: nobody's life gets easier and more manageable after being arrested. So longer prison sentences for domestic abusers then? Put them away long enough so the other party is forced to start their own life and no longer be in a situation where they are dependent on the abuser and thus unable to leave.

Don't forget that there's a significant chronological gap between being arrested and being imprisoned, and the latter is far from guaranteed.

Would a psychologist have a more immediate effect?
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