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How Can Germany's High-Speed Trains Get Back on Track?

spiegel.de

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Re: How Can Germany's High-Speed Trains Get Back on Track?

#11

Post by jameskilton »

masklinn wrote: post #9
bonsaitree wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will NEVER happen due to the lack of a sustainable economic model for passenger service. The U.S. lacks both the population density and the dearth of a legacy bulk airline/airport network to make large-scale roll-out of high-speed rail service viable. That said, I'd still be the first one to vote FOR a referendum on a build-out. Journeying by train is real, civilized travel. Outside of private charter service and…

> The U.S. lacks both the population density and the dearth of a legacy bulk airline/airport network to make large-scale roll-out of high-speed rail service viable. As a whole yes, but that's not really relevant. The US have several big metropolitan areas or groups for which HSR would be perfect: the western corridor between San Diego and SF, the north-east around NY, Ohio (Chicago area), ... Is HSR competitive for N…

And don't forget that our current "solution" ... AmTrak ... is probably the worst public train system in the developed world. I've had the pleasure of riding the ICE and as an American who never knew such a train service, it was awesome.

If we could break a few misconceptions, setup a high speed corridor along the east coast, along the west coast, and a few cross-country lines through the north and south, we could have a fantastic rail system. But that's gonna take a lot of blood, sweat, tears, and money, and the chances of it completely happening are slim to none, but there's more and more push at least for an eastern corridor line.

Re: How Can Germany's High-Speed Trains Get Back on Track?

#12

Post by Tangurena »

akadruid wrote: post #3

this article is a good demonstration of the all-or-nothing big-government requirements of high speed rail. In the two countries which have working, effective, high speed rail networks (France and Japan) it cost billions, took many years and required 100% government commitment to achieve. Only a few countries have the political setup to achieve something like that.

High speed rail is breathtakingly expensive, especially in urban areas. When BART was planning on a high speed branch out to silicon valley, it was budgeted to run $120,000,000 per mile of track. Part of the cost is that you cannot have any at-grade crossings, every road crossing has to be an over/underpass.

Re: How Can Germany's High-Speed Trains Get Back on Track?

#13

Post by masklinn »

jameskilton wrote: post #11
masklinn wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The U.S. lacks both the population density and the dearth of a legacy bulk airline/airport network to make large-scale roll-out of high-speed rail service viable. As a whole yes, but that's not really relevant. The US have several big metropolitan areas or groups for which HSR would be perfect: the western corridor between San Diego and SF, the north-east around NY, Ohio (Chicago area), ... Is HSR competitive for N…

And don't forget that our current "solution" ... AmTrak ... is probably the worst public train system in the developed world. I've had the pleasure of riding the ICE and as an American who never knew such a train service, it was awesome. If we could break a few misconceptions, setup a high speed corridor along the east coast, along the west coast, and a few cross-country lines through the north and south, we could ha…

> And don't forget that our current "solution" ... AmTrak ... is probably the worst public train system in the developed world.

In absolute, that's true. When you take in account their limitations, mandates and everything however, they're really doing pretty good. Amtrak has pretty been much treated as an enemy (of everybody) from the start, doesn't help.

Re: How Can Germany's High-Speed Trains Get Back on Track?

#14

Post by pmjordan »

masklinn wrote: post #8

At this point, for europe it might just be a better idea to let the TGV network grow outwards from France. It's already started to spread its tendrils in other countries anyway. Not that the network is that good in France though, Paris-Lyon-Marseilles has been nice for years, the connection to Lilles (and now to Bruxelles in Belgium as well) and to London via the channel tunnel is nice, a line recently opened to the…

At this point, for europe it might just be a better idea to let the TGV network grow outwards from France.

I doubt that would solve the problem where political wrangling is the issue. I especially can't see the Germans allowing the French to build and run their trains and lines. ;)

The ICE has run to Vienna for a while now, and Austria's ÖBB recently started their high-ish-speed "Railjet" [1] service (vmax currently 200km/h, due to increase to 230). Both suffer from the same network problems as Germany - trains pass through far too many smaller towns; old tracks. Plus there's the additional difficulty of the Austrian geography. The Vienna-Munich/Frankfurt route runs through one of the flattest parts of Austria, much of the rest of the country is covered in mountains.

They are building bypasses (mainly colossal tunnels, as "flat" around here still is pretty hilly) but it takes decades and consumes a phenomenal amount of taxpayer money.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railjet

Re: How Can Germany's High-Speed Trains Get Back on Track?

#15

Post by ugh »

lenni wrote: post #10
ugh wrote: post #5

A accurate portrayal of the problems, but I would very much like to add that actually going to places with a ICE really is a joy. I always prefer it to traveling by car, even if I have to travel some part of the way with a slower regional train. (That might be because traveling by train is just plain cool, period. I once took that Russian night train to Krakow – that was a unique experience.)

I love trains, too. Using high speed rail to see my parents is one the favourite things about my decision to move back to Germany. ICEs are great and it is such a shame that the network is so patchy. When they actually do go up to speed it's thrilling.

Ah, the 200 km between Cologne and Frankfurt – if only every track were like that :)

(Here’s a overview over the current state of the German network: http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:ICEtracks.pn...)

Re: How Can Germany's High-Speed Trains Get Back on Track?

#16

Post by eru »

masklinn wrote: post #8

At this point, for europe it might just be a better idea to let the TGV network grow outwards from France. It's already started to spread its tendrils in other countries anyway. Not that the network is that good in France though, Paris-Lyon-Marseilles has been nice for years, the connection to Lilles (and now to Bruxelles in Belgium as well) and to London via the channel tunnel is nice, a line recently opened to the…

> At this point, for europe it might just be a better idea to let the TGV network grow outwards from France. It's already started to spread its tendrils in other countries anyway.

You can make the same argument about the ICE network.

Re: How Can Germany's High-Speed Trains Get Back on Track?

#17

Post by eru »

noonespecial wrote: post #4
melling wrote: post #2

I wonder how many more decades before we get high-speed rail in the US... I've been on the trains in France and Japan and it's a great way to travel.

I've got the somewhat unpopular opinion that its probably too late for us Americans to put something like that together. I live in DC and have witnessed the nearly 2 decades of political whinging it took to get started on a 20 mile extension of DC's already sorry little system out to the airport. It would take a change in attitude so radical to get national high speed rail to a decent number of cities that I'm not su…

> Perhaps the end of cheap oil could do it in a generation or two?

Maybe. But electric cars should be ready in a few decades at most.

(Disclosure: I really like trains, do not own a car and have even worked for Deutsche Bahn once.)

Re: How Can Germany's High-Speed Trains Get Back on Track?

#18

Post by ugh »

pmjordan wrote: post #14
masklinn wrote: post #8

At this point, for europe it might just be a better idea to let the TGV network grow outwards from France. It's already started to spread its tendrils in other countries anyway. Not that the network is that good in France though, Paris-Lyon-Marseilles has been nice for years, the connection to Lilles (and now to Bruxelles in Belgium as well) and to London via the channel tunnel is nice, a line recently opened to the…

At this point, for europe it might just be a better idea to let the TGV network grow outwards from France. I doubt that would solve the problem where political wrangling is the issue. I especially can't see the Germans allowing the French to build and run their trains and lines. ;) The ICE has run to Vienna for a while now, and Austria's ÖBB recently started their high-ish-speed "Railjet" [1] service (vmax currently…

Oh, I don’t think that’s such a big problem. Thalys already exists [1] and they use TGV trains.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalys

Re: How Can Germany's High-Speed Trains Get Back on Track?

#19

Post by masklinn »

Tangurena wrote: post #12
akadruid wrote: post #3

this article is a good demonstration of the all-or-nothing big-government requirements of high speed rail. In the two countries which have working, effective, high speed rail networks (France and Japan) it cost billions, took many years and required 100% government commitment to achieve. Only a few countries have the political setup to achieve something like that.

High speed rail is breathtakingly expensive, especially in urban areas. When BART was planning on a high speed branch out to silicon valley, it was budgeted to run $120,000,000 per mile of track. Part of the cost is that you cannot have any at-grade crossings, every road crossing has to be an over/underpass.

> High speed rail is breathtakingly expensive

Expensive yes, breathtakingly no. The recent LGV Est (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Est) has a budget of 4b€ for 406km (252 miles) or about $20m/mile. London's M25 projects £6.5b for 117 miles, so urban motorways are not cheap either.

Completely urban stuff is very expensive, but usually HST is mostly out of urban systems, only getting in to land at a given stop and getting out just as soon.

Re: How Can Germany's High-Speed Trains Get Back on Track?

#20

Post by pjhyett »

ugh wrote: post #5

A accurate portrayal of the problems, but I would very much like to add that actually going to places with a ICE really is a joy. I always prefer it to traveling by car, even if I have to travel some part of the way with a slower regional train. (That might be because traveling by train is just plain cool, period. I once took that Russian night train to Krakow – that was a unique experience.)

We rode ICE from Berlin to Rostock last week and it was an absolute pleasure. It's funny (sad really) how taking trains in Europe is second nature when I'm visting, but you don't even consider it in the US.
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