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Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

insidehighered.com

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Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is so German on so many levels. The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't good tech jobs in Germany. Arguing for mandatory German classes to 'lock in' talent somehow is simiarly uninspired as tech companies here. What about creating jobs that good people are willing to work at?

If you'd double my salary I still wouldn't move to Germany. Learning a new language is too big investment.

You can live and work in Berlin without speaking single word of German.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#172
Several places in Europe are like this. E.g. in my home country Norway you also don't have to pay tuition: https://www.studyinnorway.no/study-in-norway/Tuition, and a lot of courses are taught in english. In the Netherlands all master level degrees at all universities are taught in english if there are any non-dutch speakers in class.

Both Norway and the Netherlands are perhaps easier if you don't speak the native language than Germany as pretty much everybody speaks quite good english in both places. I have friends in Norway I've known over decades who still don't speak a word of Norwegian.

For an english speaker dutch is probably easier to learn than German, as dutch is closer to english. E.g. "I sit in the train and drink water", in dutch becomes something like "Ik sit in de trein en drink water". Not sure about Norwegian, but it is probably an easier language than German. Not quite as complicated grammar.

Having studied at very different universities with respect to ranking, I got to say I don't think ranking means very much for the average student. It is overhyped, I can't see a huge difference. Ultimately results are going to depend on you and your efforts.

In fact there has been studies of this. Ivy League universities don't actually improve your grades or earning prospects. It just looks like that due to creaming. But when they compare SAT scores of students who could get into an Ivy League but chose not to with those who did, one doesn't see a difference in salary afterwards: https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-solution/...

I read in another study that if you are at the lower tier in an ivy league you will actually end up worse, because it will kill your confidence to be around so many people smarter than you. Go to a normal college where you are among the better and it will boost your confidence and ability to excel.

And many might already have read that Google does in fact not favor ivy league students as they are typically to dependent on external drive, grades etc, rather than internal drive to make good products which is what matters at google.

Anyway I think people should focus more on going a place they would enjoy. I think many European universities are very nice to attend because in Europe there are lots of cities which are easy to walk and with great public transport. That makes life a lot nicer for students. You can easily get around town and do all sorts of stuff, either, with bike, walking, tram, bus etc. Also at least in northern Europe societies tend to offer more freedom for youngsters. I've studied in the US for a year and found it too restrictive. There is too much control on young people. You can't drink until 21. Dormitories have a lot of rules and are gender segregated. In e.g. Norway or the Netherlands, student housing means sharing a real apartment with people. You got mixed gender and you cook food together, can invite people over, come and go when you like.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#173
The thing is, the fees discussed in Germany ( ~1000€ / semester) are no where near covering the costs of a seat for one student. It's just a drop in the ocean, so they might as well keep it free. And when tutition is free for Germans, it seems wierd and discriminatory to take fees from foreigners. I grew up in Germany, but don't have a German passport. Should I pay more? Where do you draw the line?

I was studying when they introduced the tutition fees around 2006, and protested against them. We strongly had the impression that it was never about covering costs, but rather an "educating" measure: to teach students that education has a monetary value, and so that they view themselves as customers.

In the US, people view their education usually as an investment on which they expect return (from this thread, "It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree, makes less but still some sense for Tufts and Olin, and makes no sense at all for the rest."). Some people view it that way in Germany, too, but I think many others, like me, find that very strange. We study mainly whatever we are talented at, and what we enjoy. Financial considerations are made, but not the main driver.

I believe certain people find that mindset threatening or wrong, and work(ed) actively against it. In Germany most notably neoliberal and center/conservative think tanks, like Bertelsmann foundation. These organisations lobbied for tutition fees, but also for the introduction of the Bachelor+Master system, which is much more schoolish and streamlined than the old Diplom/Magister system (which let you more freedom to study at your own pace and according to our interests).

When I look at how the money from tutition fees was used, it didn't improve teaching at all (which was the stated goal), but we got fancy new desks and cashback for books (ridiculously). This reinforces my feeling that it was driven by ideology and not by necessity.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#174

Should I study engineering in Germany? I'm looking at undergrad programs in California right now and the numbers don't add up for me. Not just tuition, but cost of living as a full time student as well. I also feel like it would be much easier for me (a non-traditional student) to get into a better university over there, as they pretty much just look at your test scores. Not all this GPA/extra-curricular "well rounde…

Netherlands might be worth looking at. TU Delft has a very good reputation and links with Shell. Also Dutch is easier to learn than German, so they say, and everyone speaks English in NL anyway! Also I seem to recall hearing that they were considering switching over to teaching completely in English for some courses.

Yes, nearly everybody speak English, in companies it is however expected, or at least appreciated if you speak Dutch.

Also, the Netherlands changes tuition. The annual tuition fee at TU Delft for the BSc is 10 kEuro, 15 kEuro in the MSc program for non-EU citizens.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#175
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear: 500 € may be sufficient in smaller cities but not in Munich and other cities with high rents.

A student visa allows the student to work 120 days per year. At minimum wage this is about EUR 720 per month. If the student allocates 40% to rent, that means 6 students could afford to pay EUR 1,228. Let's say 2 students per bedroom. Isn't it possible to rent a 3-bedroom home in Munich for EUR 1,228 per month?

> Isn't it possible to rent a 3-bedroom home in Munich for EUR 1,228 per month?

Good luck getting a flatshare these days. Landlords don't like it very much, because they associate flatshares ("Wohngemeinschaften"/"WGs") with noise complaints due to partying and trouble when one of the renters can't make rent.

Also, 3-bedroom homes are already in scarce supply these days in Munich - any type of home is in scarce supply, and landlords will abuse this situation to pick only the most profitable (i.e. they pay their rent on time and don't generate complaints) kinds of renters: either DINKs (Double income, no kids - kids cause noise and thus complaints of neighors), or welfare clients where the Arbeitsamt pays the rent. Everyone else - low-income persons, families with kids, persons with their own company, persons on time-limited employment, persons with dogs (again, noise complaints), refugees, persons of non-German origin - is left to fight for the scraps. That there has been no build of "welfare housing" the last decades and many of the "welfare housing" projects exited the programmes only amplifies the need doesn't help much either.

Oh, and if you got a family name that doesn't sound German... well, good luck. Many landlords and brokers won't even bother to return calls.

Source: live in Munich, only got my apartment due to a friendly relationship with a broker.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#176
post #71

If you are a young person living in a poor country, the two best investments you can make to improve your standard of living are (a) get a university education; and (b) immigrate to a rich country. Germany offers both: 1. A free undergraduate university degree 2. For every graduate: 18 month work visa after graduation 3. For every STEM graduate who earns more than EUR 40,000 per year: approval to work in Germany fore…

Because 40k€ a year is not a lot of money after the high taxes. For example, for a non-married 25 year old 40k€ p.a. results in about ~2k€ net per month after taxes. When you further deduct the costs of a apartment rent, utility bills, car, food, insurances, phone bills, various little "fees" that are actually taxes (e.g. Rundfunkbeitrag), you are very lucky if you have 1k€ left left. That is not a lot of money to send home.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is so German on so many levels. The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't good tech jobs in Germany. Arguing for mandatory German classes to 'lock in' talent somehow is simiarly uninspired as tech companies here. What about creating jobs that good people are willing to work at?

If you'd double my salary I still wouldn't move to Germany. Learning a new language is too big investment.

I can't speak for Germany, but e.g. in Norway and the Netherlands which I know best, there are a lot of nice tech jobs and you don't have to speak a word of the native language. I know because I've had colleagues over a decade who don't speak the native language and who are still just fine.

Most tech companies today use english as work language anyway. Not necessarily social talk among people, but usually in meetings, emails, documentation etc.

Still I recommend learning the local language. It has advantages but it is not something you are completely dependent on.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#178

My personal experience says, that it is not working out. I cannot tell for the whole country, but I do have some insights, since I am hiring and interviewing students and studied in one of the universities mentioned elsewhere in the thread. There is an English speaking Master program, consisting almost entirely of Pakistani and Indian students. Some facts about them: - They are not required to learn German, so they s…

My experience in Germany is the exact opposite, foreign students are usually the most communicative and the most dedicated at the same time.

And it is not like getting a degree is an automatism. If you are bad, you will fail and drop out. There has been an inflation in grades in the recent years, but most degrees are still hard to obtain and require that you really learn what you are doing.

Maybe it is different in different fields, but at least this is my impression in physics and the natural sciences.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#179

The thing is, the fees discussed in Germany ( ~1000€ / semester) are no where near covering the costs of a seat for one student. It's just a drop in the ocean, so they might as well keep it free. And when tutition is free for Germans, it seems wierd and discriminatory to take fees from foreigners. I grew up in Germany, but don't have a German passport. Should I pay more? Where do you draw the line? I was studying whe…

> when tutition is free for Germans, it seems wierd and discriminatory to take fees from foreigners

German citizens subsidize this "free" university with their taxes. This includes low-level workers who have never visited a university. So essentially you are asking poor people in Germany to pay for the education of middle-class or rich people from other countries.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#180
post #42

> Why Germany Educates International Students for Free One thing to remember: That university education may not be that expensive does not mean everybody is allowed to study. Universities often set high barriers. In Germany 27% of young adults get an university degree. OECD average is 40%. It's not because Germans are more stupid, but because there are less students allowed to enter University education. Also there a…

That's interesting. Are there options for the 73% that don't go to Uni? Trade schools? What about at lower levels (ages 5-12)... do kids get to progress to the next level regardless of performance in an annual exam (like the US "no child left behind" policy), or do they have to have to repeat a year/level if they fail?

In addition to the other comment, 73% is counting all grown up germans. The current generation has an university enrollment rate of about 50%. So while many older germans have basically been trained on the job, many younger once wont which is one of the reasons many younger foreign europeans now learn a job in germany as no inlanders apply.

Tradditionally we have the concept that kids can fail a grade and have to repeat it but more and more educators are not in favor of this anymore, so its more or less changing.

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