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Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

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Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#241

Post by sremani »

pps43 wrote: post #232
sorenjan wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of people care, but what are we supposed to do about it? Here in Europe Erdogan makes the headlines from time to time, right before the referendum he made several speeches where he called the politicians of multiple countries "descendants of nazis" and similar. Everybody knows that he cares more about suppressing the Kurds than ISIS. He holds Europe hostage by threatening to release large amounts of refugees i…

> what are we supposed to do about it? Kick Turkey out of NATO first. If things get worse, impose sanctions.

Nope, US needs more Turkey, not less. Erdogan is democratically elected leader, and yes, he is changing and breaking things, but he is still ELECTED.

Turkey is going through transformation, and it will come out of it stronger and mostly becoming pillar of Middle East. In an already chaotic part of the world, pushing Turkey to brink to satiate your "bleeding heart" will cause more death and destruction not less.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#242

Post by epmaybe »

goodplay wrote: post #218
cryptarch wrote: post #203

Totally agree. Have a look at some controversial pages if you've never encountered one, like this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_assignment I'm triggered so here's my soapbox: Wikipedia currently undermines the idea that human beings have a sex that is grounded in biological reality, and pushes the notion of "sex assigned at birth", the unreality of biological sex and the reality of transgenderism as non-ment…

Agreed with your statement in general. I once added a [citation needed] to a non-controversial technical statement that was false by definition only to have the edit reverted. When I asked for an explanation, the editor replied that the tag "has no place on a highly visible page". I never participated after that point. People who have a lot of time or have been incentivised to edit wikipedia will always have the fina…

Couldn't you have gone above the editor? Like a moderator, or an administrator, regarding the edit? Not saying that what happened to you is fine, but if it does happen then you have to go further.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#243

Post by sorokod »

beloch wrote: post #31

I'm a canuck who has worked with Turks and has visited Turkey. They're a wonderful people from a beautiful country with a real problem of a person in power. Turkey is almost entirely Muslim, yet they produce alcohol and tolerate its consumption within their borders, even by their own people. Let that fact sink in for a moment. Erdogan is subverting the premier secular democracy of the Islamic world, but nobody seems…

Aren't you oversimplifying things? Wasn't Erdogan democratically​ elected and later democratically increased?

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#244

Post by m_fayer »

maxxxxx wrote: post #190
mino wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More than 63% voted yes in Germany for instance. I also was baffled about the results of the Turkish vote abroad. How is it possible that, in many EU states, they won which such a majority? I would have expected expats to be generally more liberal/globalist/progressive.

When I lived in Germany a lot of the Turks I knew were very right wing. They were against asylum seekers and would have kicked out foreigners if they could have. The people in the US who are against big government while receiving government pensions remind me a little of that mindset.

This is a common phenomenon that's not very well known outside of immigrant communities. My family emigrated to the US from Russia in the mid 80s and quickly went hard-right, as did most of their cohort. Same for many Chinese immigrants to the US, Cubans, and I'm sure the list goes on.

I never completely understood this. I guess it's partly a kneejerk reaction to the nominally left-wing repressive regimes they left behind. Another component is probably a sudden immersion into a truly pluralistic society when coming from an intolerant and homogenous one. But still, I can't say I truly understand it.

I'm in my 30s and this is still a source of conflict between my family and me. They're lower-class "real people" who have a soft spot for despots on the Putin spectrum. Because while they're pro-democracy, they also think you need a "firm hand" to keep all "those people" in line, and by "those people" they mean people they can't or won't empathise with: poor black people, the stew of "educated degenerates" who refuse to have normal sexualities or lifestyles, muslims, and so on.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#245

Post by Larrikin »

sremani wrote: post #241
pps43 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what are we supposed to do about it? Kick Turkey out of NATO first. If things get worse, impose sanctions.

Nope, US needs more Turkey, not less. Erdogan is democratically elected leader, and yes, he is changing and breaking things, but he is still ELECTED. Turkey is going through transformation, and it will come out of it stronger and mostly becoming pillar of Middle East. In an already chaotic part of the world, pushing Turkey to brink to satiate your "bleeding heart" will cause more death and destruction not less.

Isn't this the same argument for leaving Assad alone in Syria?

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#246

Post by andai »

ue_ wrote: post #154
cryptarch wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be the change you want to see! Go ahead and abolish all your own property, you're free to do so. Or was it more about you wanting to be entitled to product of your fellow man's labor?

>Go ahead and abolish all your own property, you're free to do so. I do not own any private property. >Or was it more about you wanting to be entitled to product of your fellow man's labor? No; in fact, the exact opposite. It is about the worker owning the product of his own labour, rather than having it appropriated when production has finished. To each according to his labour.

You've figured out something very important, which is that as an employee, you never get to see most (ie. all, beyond the limit of your wage) of the value you create.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#247

Post by 1001101 »

pps43 wrote: post #232
sorenjan wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of people care, but what are we supposed to do about it? Here in Europe Erdogan makes the headlines from time to time, right before the referendum he made several speeches where he called the politicians of multiple countries "descendants of nazis" and similar. Everybody knows that he cares more about suppressing the Kurds than ISIS. He holds Europe hostage by threatening to release large amounts of refugees i…

> what are we supposed to do about it? Kick Turkey out of NATO first. If things get worse, impose sanctions.

He's holding millions of Syrian refugees and has threatened to send them to Europe if things don't go his way. Think European nationalism is bad now? You might not have a NATO after that.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#248

Post by epmaybe »

cryptarch wrote: post #203

Totally agree. Have a look at some controversial pages if you've never encountered one, like this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_assignment I'm triggered so here's my soapbox: Wikipedia currently undermines the idea that human beings have a sex that is grounded in biological reality, and pushes the notion of "sex assigned at birth", the unreality of biological sex and the reality of transgenderism as non-ment…

I respectfully disagree with you on Wikipedia's article on sex assignment. To me, it covers the issue in detail, going over the mental health aspects that have persisted. Additionally, it explicitly notes that the surgeries if done in a child could be construed as human rights violations, with notions of respect to a child's autonomy and right to privacy/identity.

If you could point me to where in the article you have a problem, I'd appreciate it.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#249

Post by RichardHeart »

Much of this problem comes not from the top, but from the bottom. It's a terrible idea that people can actually suck, and suck en masse, but it truly is the case. The bad leader is an emergent consequent of the bad people crying for him. Shitty leaders aren't the sole purview of Islamic states, but they seem to be better at generating them than anyone else in recent history.

How do you fix millions of people, so they stop desiring terrible things? Well, by having a culture that pays better, and marketing it well. And it's delicate, because their "better" detector isn't working properly already.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#250

Post by sremani »

Larrikin wrote: post #245
sremani wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, US needs more Turkey, not less. Erdogan is democratically elected leader, and yes, he is changing and breaking things, but he is still ELECTED. Turkey is going through transformation, and it will come out of it stronger and mostly becoming pillar of Middle East. In an already chaotic part of the world, pushing Turkey to brink to satiate your "bleeding heart" will cause more death and destruction not less.

Isn't this the same argument for leaving Assad alone in Syria?

Of course, it is. If Assad loses Chrisitians and Alawites will be massacred in Syria.

A more honest assessment is, Gaddaffi, thanks to regime change, you have slave trade live and well in Libya. Pick your poison.

Its always easy to say, replace this.. but it much harder to replace it with what?

Middle East is not a choice about good and evil, it always present two bad choices, I choose the ones in which fewer people die.

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