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Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

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Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#181

Post by ardaozkal »

hollander wrote: post #145
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a major issue with Turkey is that there is a large non-secular voting bloc. Historically, that has been kept in check by periodic coupes by the Kemalist military. However, Erdogan has succeeded in taming the military (as demonstrated vividly by the failed coupe). Thus, the non-secular voting bloc has escaped the historic check. I am afraid, Turkey will become less secular in the next few years. In addition, t…

Well it seems the majority is not that big. He won by a small margin, while controlling all the media. If it had been a true free election, I bet he would have lost this referendum. And if you look at the demographics, people in cities voted against, countryside pro. Turkish people living abroad voted pro Erdogan. I bet most of those people came from the countryside in Turkey.

> while controlling all the media

It's much, much more than that. Every single billboard and half the TV ads before referendum were ads telling people to vote "yes".

People didn't even know what they were voting for.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#183

Post by cryptarch »

sverhagen wrote: post #70
jerheinze wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The map has "Confirmed censorship cases" and Denmark, Finland and France, ... all fit there. For Denmark for example: https://explorer.ooni.torproject.org/country/DK They're blocking http://thepiratebay.org , that's straight up censorship.

The latter being censorship is really an opinion rather than undisputed, fact, or a guaranteed majority opinion.

The censorship is a fact, only its justification is in dispute.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#184

Post by ardaozkal »

thinknot wrote: post #49

>People in the West need to wake up and do their due diligence on Erdogan's regime. There's some seriously scary stuff happening because of this guy. Honest question, why should the west care about every single problem that happens anywhere in the world? Why should we spend billions in wars, shed lots of our own blood, etc? Haven't we had enough of that?

We do not ask you to declare war, but politically censuring (not censoring) people who abuse their power would have a great effect.

Even if you don't do that, just don't support them: For example, it'd be great if trump didn't call erdogan after referendum to congratulate him.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#185

Post by ardaozkal »

thinknot wrote: post #138
jstanley wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All borders should be abolished. No human being has the right to tell any other human being where he can or can't go (with the exception of trespassing on private property, of course).

As someone who lives next to a border: no thank you.

The parent post also defends your right of moving away from a border, you know.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#186

Post by kyriakos »

lubonay wrote: post #59
beloch wrote: post #31

I'm a canuck who has worked with Turks and has visited Turkey. They're a wonderful people from a beautiful country with a real problem of a person in power. Turkey is almost entirely Muslim, yet they produce alcohol and tolerate its consumption within their borders, even by their own people. Let that fact sink in for a moment. Erdogan is subverting the premier secular democracy of the Islamic world, but nobody seems…

Isn't it kinda undemocratic for "the West" to go in and overthrow an, ironically enough, democratically elected dictator?

As someone living in Cyprus an island who has serious issues with Turkey, overthrowing Erdogan scares me more than Erdogan being a dictator.

At this point at least we know Erdogan's issues stay inside Turkey. If someone unsuccessfully tries to overthrow him no one can predict what his reaction will be. From invading Greece to a civil war that will end with hundreds of thousands dead.

If he is successfully overthrown, we'll have a new Iraq for a decade before the area stabilizes. Either way there's no clean solution.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#187

Post by nebabyte »

cies wrote: post #15
matthewmacleod wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "decentralise"? Smaller-scope government at a local level? Anarcho-syndicalism? I suspect many of the same issues would appear.

> What do you mean by "decentralise"? Smaller-scope government at a local level? Anarcho-syndicalism? Yes. > I suspect many of the same issues would appear. Nope. When democracy is small enough, the leaders are very close to their voters. This changes everything. See small democratic countries, they do much better at being democratic! I think we can make it smaller, and have the democratic process at neighbourhood/vi…

So what was that you were saying about "trying to fix governments being pointless"? Or is this proposal not "a government" in your eyes.

> Then go up from there with committees filled with delegates from the local-democracies

This is sounding pretty much like a parliamentary or congressional system. (yes, congresses do exist that differ from the US')

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#188

Post by cryptarch »

candiodari wrote: post #36
sethbannon wrote: post #12

Meanwhile, in the U.S., the administration is taking down government websites in an effort to bury climate data and scientific information. Useful to remember it's not just countries like China and Turkey that try to limit citizens' access to information. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/20...

Important caveat: the US government is reducing it's own efforts to combat climate change. That's not censorship.

Censorship is the suppression of undesirable information. Data on climate change is now being suppressed because it is undesirable to the POTUS.

The US Gov. has many branches and is not one consistent entity. The administration choosing the censor other branches is censorship.

A = A

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#189

Post by ardaozkal »

fulafel wrote: post #44
beloch wrote: post #31

I'm a canuck who has worked with Turks and has visited Turkey. They're a wonderful people from a beautiful country with a real problem of a person in power. Turkey is almost entirely Muslim, yet they produce alcohol and tolerate its consumption within their borders, even by their own people. Let that fact sink in for a moment. Erdogan is subverting the premier secular democracy of the Islamic world, but nobody seems…

The voters elected and support an autocratic leader, however wonderful people they may be. It's not just about Erdogan.

Reposting my comment from another place here, as it kinda applies to this too, especially the second sentence:

> Every single billboard and half the TV ads before referendum were ads telling people to vote "yes".

> People didn't even know what they were voting for.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#190

Post by maxxxxx »

mino wrote: post #165
sorenjan wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real people rarely want war, they all want the same basic things: food and shelter, a good future for their kids, and to live in peace. This is universal over the whole world, unless they've had their minds poisoned by leaders with their own agendas, be it political or religious. However, most people also don't really care that much about other people, especially in other countries. So they elect people to handle tha…

> More than 63% voted yes in Germany for instance. I also was baffled about the results of the Turkish vote abroad. How is it possible that, in many EU states, they won which such a majority? I would have expected expats to be generally more liberal/globalist/progressive.

When I lived in Germany a lot of the Turks I knew were very right wing. They were against asylum seekers and would have kicked out foreigners if they could have. The people in the US who are against big government while receiving government pensions remind me a little of that mindset.
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