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Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

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Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#171

Post by zepto »

hasenj wrote: post #150
zepto wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natural differences are things like 'mean height', and the ability to get pregnant. It is quite reasonable that past societies divided labor based on suitability of physical capacities for different tasks. It wouldn't be reasonable to call this 'oppression' per se. However the structure of roles human societies has always been mediated by the level of technology. Gender divisions of labor, class and caste systems etc…

Think about that history affected our biology (due to evolution). Consider the case with food. We now have an abundance of food rich with carbs and fats, but if we eat too much of them we get sick, because our bodies were designed with certain assumptions about environment. In this case, or natural environment. Wouldn't the same be applicable to our social environment? Also, technology is not permanent. Consider what…

So women should be kept in outdated gender roles in case society collapses?

At least it's clear what kind of logic you are using.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#172

Post by belorn »

chongli wrote: post #86
belorn wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term aggressor is misplaced. The data shows how men as a general rule always play the antagonist and the disposable henchmen. The mustache-twirling, eye-rolling, leering, cackling, and hand-rubbing villain is by definition male, and in the rare occasion a plot is different and switches the gender of the antagonist it also adds additional changes like poison and stabbing instead of guns and punching.

mustache-twirling, eye-rolling, leering, cackling, and hand-rubbing villain is by definition male Apart from the mustache (or maybe not) this is an apt description of the wicked witch trope of female villains. So I'm going to say, no?

The wicked witch trope is named after the wicked witch of the west character, which don't do much leering or hand rubbing. There is a lot of cackling, possible some eye-rolling, but that's about it. An other famous witch villain is the white witch (Narnia), which has none of those attributes.

But lets look at a famous villain that has been portrait as both female and male roles and see how they differ. Moriarty is male in the TV show Sherlock (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN7DYPJLXkc), and female in Elementary (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY7i8cQontg). Which character is show more as the typical villain, and which is portrait as more complex with redeeming values? If they keep the script identical with the exact same lines, what would happened if the genders was reversed for the two shows?

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#173

Post by chongli »

belorn wrote: post #172
chongli wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mustache-twirling, eye-rolling, leering, cackling, and hand-rubbing villain is by definition male Apart from the mustache (or maybe not) this is an apt description of the wicked witch trope of female villains. So I'm going to say, no?

The wicked witch trope is named after the wicked witch of the west character, which don't do much leering or hand rubbing. There is a lot of cackling, possible some eye-rolling, but that's about it. An other famous witch villain is the white witch (Narnia), which has none of those attributes. But lets look at a famous villain that has been portrait as both female and male roles and see how they differ. Moriarty is ma…

The wicked witch trope is named after the wicked witch of the west character

Yes, but the actual details of the trope go back much farther in time. The Fates of Norse and Greek mythology, the Three Witches in Macbeth, Baba Yaga from Slavic folklore. There is a long, long tradition of female characters with supernatural power, unsettling appearance and behaviour, and a tendency toward transgressing taboos such as cannibalism.

As for your Moriarty example, you're butting up against the TV industry's insistence on casting beautiful actresses in almost every role. This is a problem! If you replaced Natalie Dormer with a woman in her late 70s who's never had plastic surgeries you'd have a different comparison to think about.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#174

Post by coldtea »

zepto wrote: post #170
coldtea wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, technology is not permanent. Consider what would happen if society collapsed for whatever reason. Plus, "just because technology enables it" is never enough reason for anything.

"Just because it was this way in the past" is an even worse reason for anything,

Actually that's a very good reason, if not the best one.

Having been that way in the past means it's already tried. And if it has been carried on, it means it has passed the test, and it has proven useful. It also means its not fickle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect

https://medium.com/incerto/an-expert-called-lindy-fdb30f146e...

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#175

Post by coldtea »

zepto wrote: post #171
hasenj wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think about that history affected our biology (due to evolution). Consider the case with food. We now have an abundance of food rich with carbs and fats, but if we eat too much of them we get sick, because our bodies were designed with certain assumptions about environment. In this case, or natural environment. Wouldn't the same be applicable to our social environment? Also, technology is not permanent. Consider what…

So women should be kept in outdated gender roles in case society collapses? At least it's clear what kind of logic you are using.

Note that the qualification "outdated" has been added by you, not the parent.

One could have easily said "evergreen" or "tried and true" or "resilient" roles.

Also not being reliant on what's enabled by the available technology for major choices is more than about "being prepared in case society collapses".

For one, technology is neutral, it can enable all kinds of things, including things that are bad for society. What should be going should be a cultural/ethical/etc discussion, not a knee-jerk adoption of any new available option.

Not saying that this is the case here, but there's more to being logical than your critique of the parent.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#176

Post by zepto »

coldtea wrote: post #175
zepto wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So women should be kept in outdated gender roles in case society collapses? At least it's clear what kind of logic you are using.

Note that the qualification "outdated" has been added by you, not the parent. One could have easily said "evergreen" or "tried and true" or "resilient" roles. Also not being reliant on what's enabled by the available technology for major choices is more than about "being prepared in case society collapses". For one, technology is neutral, it can enable all kinds of things, including things that are bad for society. W…

If you want to make the case that the gender roles are not outdated, be my guest.

The parent brought up the idea of society collapsing. Not me. If you have something to add please do, otherwise you are just kicking up dust.

There has been a cultural/ethical discussion going on and a great many people decided that gender roles needed to change. If you 'aren't saying that's what happened here' how is your comment relevant?

All you have attempted to do here is add doubt without adding substance or logic of your own. If you can actually argue your position, go ahead, but engaging in this kind undermining suggests that not only can you not, you are aware of it.

Your other comments on this topic show that your suggestion that you are merely trying to point out that my logic isn't as strong as it could be is a misrepresentation of your view.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#177

Post by zepto »

coldtea wrote: post #174
zepto wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Just because it was this way in the past" is an even worse reason for anything,

Actually that's a very good reason, if not the best one. Having been that way in the past means it's already tried. And if it has been carried on, it means it has passed the test, and it has proven useful. It also means its not fickle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect https://medium.com/incerto/an-expert-called-lindy-fdb30f146e...

Nope. All it tell you is that it has been tried and it works for whoever is in power. Any kind of oppression that works, can therefore be justified this way, including slavery and genocide.

Just because something works, does not mean it is good to do. And in fact, having seen the undesirable effects of a practice may provide all the reason need for discontinuing it in favor of an untried practice.

You are simply arguing against the development of society.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#178

Post by belorn »

chongli wrote: post #173
belorn wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wicked witch trope is named after the wicked witch of the west character, which don't do much leering or hand rubbing. There is a lot of cackling, possible some eye-rolling, but that's about it. An other famous witch villain is the white witch (Narnia), which has none of those attributes. But lets look at a famous villain that has been portrait as both female and male roles and see how they differ. Moriarty is ma…

The wicked witch trope is named after the wicked witch of the west character Yes, but the actual details of the trope go back much farther in time. The Fates of Norse and Greek mythology, the Three Witches in Macbeth, Baba Yaga from Slavic folklore. There is a long, long tradition of female characters with supernatural power, unsettling appearance and behaviour, and a tendency toward transgressing taboos such as cann…

The villain as plotted in current shows share roots in the older mystic stories but they also mirror current cultural values rather than past cultural values.

If for example we would have Hansel and Gretel, which is full of old symbolism about past cultural views of older women, it would be completely impossible to gender swap the antagonist. Interpreting a male antagonist in that story in current culture we would invoking feelings of pedophilia and not cannibalism, changing the story in a very radical way.

With current cultural values, stories generally cast female antagonists with a strong theme of betrayal. Even in the few cases of female henchmen like that one specific James Bond movie with female henchmen, we still see that arc. Male henchmen in other movies don't get such arcs, and is generally simply thrown in as an obstacle to be disposed of. Female henchmen are also generally not killed, which further limits the possibilities.

Last, the Sherlock version would not work with a late 70 old woman if they kept all other aspect of the character intact. Listen on the clip and try to imagine a old woman saying it. The character explicitly say they want to be seen as the classic villain, and as such it do not work unless its male. Even the wicked witch do not go around and say to the protagonist that "I am the villain and you should hate me".

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