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N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

nytimes.com

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Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#101

Post by killjoywashere »

andreyf wrote: post #62
jwtadvice wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The important aspect for the NSA's interpretation is that algorithms can look at and process the data and create metadata or synopsis information from it. Having an intelligence system ingest this metadata and synopsis is not considered "collection". Essentially, if it can be automated, it isn't collection. If a human gets pulled into the loop to look at data, that's when it's collected. However, a human could be sho…

And what will you need to show to obtain said rubber stamp? This is not secret, either: Search for "how FISA works" here: http://www.belfercenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/files...

Curiously, a fair amount of genetic research is done this way: the genetic info is PHI, but the covered entity holds the data and the computer capacity. The researcher just pushes an algorithm to the cluster and gets aggregate results back.

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#102

Post by 19eightyfour »

I don't know why Snowden is so quick to tweet that this is a victory. To me, it's a multivariate equation, and all they've done is made one of the variables smaller. They can sustain collection at the same amounts, by making another variable proportionally larger. For instance, what's changed is that they no longer collect signals that mention a target, only signals to or from a target. So all you need to do to keep collecting the same amount, is to make a lot more targets.

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#103

Post by bobwaycott »

nyolfen wrote: post #23
jancsika wrote: post #17

We can't sensibly discuss this story here unless we know which definition of "collect" is being used in the story. Normal definition: collect. For example: "Even collected all the data going to and from Bob's house by putting a splitter on the cable." NSA's definition: not that, as cited in various stories sourced by the Snowden leaks from the Guardian. I won't attempt to define exactly how the NSA defines "collect"…

their definition (via secret interpretation of USSID 18, according to Bill Binney[1]) is roughly that it's only collected if they actually go back and look at it at some point down the line. your web browsing history (or whatever) sitting on a hard drive in utah doesn't fall under this definition until they look at it. [1] https://youtu.be/r9-3K3rkPRE

So they're taking a rather quantum take on this as a superposition of states that are unknown until measurement occurs and they collapse the wave function into being "collected". Cool.

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#104

Post by mtempm »

CriticalSection wrote: post #32
Baeocystin wrote: post #3

Things that I do not for one second believe: this. Maybe this one particular program, under one particular name, sure. But overall? I just don't see it. I am not saying this cynically, I just don't. Data collection is too easy, database queries too simple.

Sure. Prior to World War II, the FBI began keeping a list of people to be rounded up "in the event of a national emergency" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Index ). Some people on this index were put in concentration camps during World War II, notably people of Japanese heritage (and as Cygnus co-founder John Gilmore notes, some of these people were identified, via a legal fiction, by them filling out that they w…

Remember in the 90s when reading your email was seen as a creepy deed done by greasy, social outcasts? Contrast that with our government, today, spending unholy amounts of money to do that while Americans go without clean water and healthcare.

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#105

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

mirimir wrote: post #76
colordrops wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not only a matter of definitions. It's also a matter of belief. The head of the NSA has lied directly to congress about data collection activities. We have absolutely no reason to believe they will have actually stopped collecting data even if they say so.

Right. It's prudent to assume that the NSA intercepts all Internet traffic, and stores as much as they can, for as long as they can, focusing on what seems most important. Everything is retained for a few days. Then they triage, based on names, addresses, keywords, and so on. Metadata and encrypted stuff, they reportedly retain indefinitely.

EO12333 suspends the fourth amendment for everyone subject to a background investigation for clearance purposes. At the very minimum they will maintain their domestic collection ability just to exercise that power.

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#106

Post by rhizome »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #41
elevenfist wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, scraping has taken place, so you've violated a eula and potentially committed theft. But you haven't violated copyright, as long as you do not distribute the data either, (through any means) pretty sure that's fair "use." Ymmv, not a lawyer and this is internet bullshitting, not legal advice.

Eureka! We make a class-action lawsuit, charging the government $X billion for violating our copyrights because of NSA surveillance!

Alas! Sovereign immunity means you can't sue the government without their permission.

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#107

Post by [deleted] »

jancsika wrote: post #17

We can't sensibly discuss this story here unless we know which definition of "collect" is being used in the story. Normal definition: collect. For example: "Even collected all the data going to and from Bob's house by putting a splitter on the cable." NSA's definition: not that, as cited in various stories sourced by the Snowden leaks from the Guardian. I won't attempt to define exactly how the NSA defines "collect"…

[deleted]

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#108

Post by jancsika »

engx wrote: post #43
jancsika wrote: post #17

We can't sensibly discuss this story here unless we know which definition of "collect" is being used in the story. Normal definition: collect. For example: "Even collected all the data going to and from Bob's house by putting a splitter on the cable." NSA's definition: not that, as cited in various stories sourced by the Snowden leaks from the Guardian. I won't attempt to define exactly how the NSA defines "collect"…

General Hayden was recently on Sam Harris' podcast and he briefly explained the 'retroactive collection' concept- https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/privacy-and-security I'd say his arguments appear clear and convincing, even to a skeptic like myself. I wonder what can be done to counter his seemingly perfect narrative so Americans can be rightfully concerned about what's happening. To be clear, I don't believe H…

> I wonder what can be done to counter his seemingly perfect narrative so Americans can be rightfully concerned about what's happening.

I think that a) redefining common terms to mean idiosyncratic things and b) using the idiosyncratic terms in public to imply their original common meaning is enough to trigger a warning to the layperson against putting too much stock in a particular speaker's narrative. I can say from experience that people tend to perk up when you give them such a warning.

Also, Sam Harris isn't particularly well-versed in the issues surrounding wide-net surveillance. Add Bruce Schneier or Dan Bernstein to the discussion and that "seemingly perfect narrative" will start to look very different.

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#110

Post by IIAOPSW »

exabrial wrote: post #69

This program likely started under Bush but was KEPT by Obama. It really upsets me that people give him a free pass for such an egregious violation of the Constitution.

And has yet to stop under Trump.

Let's hold all presidents to the same standard.

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