Startups are America’s job engine, so give workers tax credits • Hacker News Board

Re: Startups are America’s job engine, so give workers tax credits

#81

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 8:51 PM UTC

jnordwick wrote: post #79

random28345 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm going to need a cite for that. You're going to need a citation for... employers seeking lower wages? And that these lower wages are subsidized by government benefits? The citation would be nearly every company, ever. So start with Walmart and work your way down, I guess. https://americansfortaxfairness.org/files/Taxpayers-and-Walm... tl;dr: Taxpayers pay $5/hr in benefits to allow the employees of Walmart to be…

No I'm going to need a cite for the EITC claim. I speaking about how it specifically aligns motivations and interests, because it is different than other welfare programs. Or are you just saying all welfare programs are bad? That's not a discussion I'm willing to engage in. On the edit - yes I agree that part of the subsidy is split, as with all subsidies, but I think the EITC uniquely incentivizes those in the progr…

> but I think the EITC uniquely incentivizes those in the program to work themselves out of it, unlike other programs

No, it doesn't, it incentives them to work their way into the middle of it. Once you're there, like other means-tested programs, it mitigates market incentives to further progress by reducing benefits with increasing outside income, reducing the marginal utility of each additional dollar of income.

Now, it may be that it empowers people enough that the increase in the ability to move up outweighs the incentive mitigation at the top end of the range, and that it is in that way more effective than some other programs. But, it's incenitved have the same failings criticized by UBI advocates as other means-tested benefit programs.

Re: Startups are America’s job engine, so give workers tax credits

#82

Post by Arizhel » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 9:17 PM UTC

tmaly wrote: post #69

kratak wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flat tax is a horrible libertarian idea that simply hurts lower-income people, because to get the same revenue you end up having to massively raise the taxes on the lower classes, which they can't afford since they're already struggling to make ends meet. We've had progressive taxation in this country since the invention of income tax, for good reason. If you want simpler taxes, you don't need a flat tax, you just ne…

Flat tax was just something that came to mind. I am not stuck on the idea, I just think we could have something much simpler than what we have that requires less of peoples time each year. I heard in Canada, the system does it all for you and its much less of a time suck than what we have here.

It's not just Canada, it's all the developed nations. The US has a horribly complex tax system, while the developed nations do not. It's because of all the credits and deductions for everything. And it's hard to get rid of them because someone will be mad and will write their Congressman, and also because companies like Intuit (Turbotax), plus uncountable CPAs, profit from this system.

Re: Startups are America’s job engine, so give workers tax credits

#83

Post by prostoalex » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 9:41 PM UTC

snarf21 wrote: post #26

cbhl wrote: post #6

Canada has a refundable tax credit that many startups take advantage of, known as SR&ED. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Research_and_Experi... The one caveat is that you have to spend money (and keep good books) in order to be eligible for the tax credit.

This is interesting but I've always thought we should do it in such a way where someone could take say $100K out of their 401K to start up a business. This money is sitting right now and doesn't help grow the economy. The company would be eligible for tax credits if the company fails at a lower rate and spread across five years. So say you and a partner start a company and document the percentage of this money that i…

> someone could take say $100K out of their 401K to start up a business. This money is sitting right now and doesn't help grow the economy.

Apart from being loaned to companies in exchange for bonds, loaned to various levels of government to support infrastructure projects, or capitalizing companies and decreasing corporate borrowing costs in exchange for equity.

Re: Startups are America’s job engine, so give workers tax credits

#84

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 9:50 PM UTC

snarf21 wrote: post #26

cbhl wrote: post #6

Canada has a refundable tax credit that many startups take advantage of, known as SR&ED. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Research_and_Experi... The one caveat is that you have to spend money (and keep good books) in order to be eligible for the tax credit.

This is interesting but I've always thought we should do it in such a way where someone could take say $100K out of their 401K to start up a business. This money is sitting right now and doesn't help grow the economy. The company would be eligible for tax credits if the company fails at a lower rate and spread across five years. So say you and a partner start a company and document the percentage of this money that i…

> This is interesting but I've always thought we should do it in such a way where someone could take say $100K out of their 401K to start up a business. This money is sitting right now and doesn't help grow the economy.

No, it's invested, probably in one or more businesses, and therefore is helping to grow the economy.

Re: Startups are America’s job engine, so give workers tax credits

#85

Post by narrowrail » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 10:48 PM UTC

kratak wrote: post #65

tmaly wrote: post #2

I still think $6000 is a large amount in some sense for someone just getting started. I would much rather see this along with a flat tax. The recent discussion on here about USFacts.org highlighted that revenue was growing in proportion to population. What someone had said is that it makes the case for a much simpler tax system. We spend 6 billion man hours a year on taxes in the US. Is that really the best use of ou…

Flat tax is a horrible libertarian idea that simply hurts lower-income people, because to get the same revenue you end up having to massively raise the taxes on the lower classes, which they can't afford since they're already struggling to make ends meet. We've had progressive taxation in this country since the invention of income tax, for good reason. If you want simpler taxes, you don't need a flat tax, you just ne…

I consider myself a true fan of liberty and a flat tax is so regressive it seems an obvious attempt to stew hate for all taxes. It's so rare I meet such unreasonable people in my day-to-day (though I did yesterday).

Re: Startups are America’s job engine, so give workers tax credits

#86

Post by winstonewert » Sat, Apr 29, 2017, 4:34 AM UTC

random28345 wrote: post #73

winstonewert wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about we start by not attacking straw men? Objecting to the redistribution of wealth isn't the same as trying to do away with the rule of law.

> Objecting to the redistribution of wealth isn't the same as trying to do away with the rule of law. The rule of law depends on the redistribution of wealth. Courts, public defenders, police, regulators, juries don't magically appear out of nowhere. Therefore, it seems obvious that if you are absolutely opposed to the redistribution of wealth, you are therefore absolutely opposed to what most people would consider c…

That's not what people mean when they talk about the redistribution of wealth.

The redistribution of wealth refers specifically to taking from those that have more and giving it those who have less. In particular, having everyone pay to maintain the rule of law is most certainly not what most people mean by redistribution of wealth.

Re: Startups are America’s job engine, so give workers tax credits

#87

Post by jnordwick » Sat, Apr 29, 2017, 10:53 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #43

evanpw wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Up to a certain point, EITC payments increase as income increases, so it actually encourages work among low-wage employees. (Of course, it phases out at higher incomes, which discourages work).

Yeah I understand how it is structured. It really mostly supports up to 2.3 children. The max credits, from https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/individuals/earned-in... $6,318 with three or more qualifying children $5,616 with two qualifying children $3,400 with one qualifying child $510 with no qualifying children The point is that lots of people see it as a negative because it is a government payout.

I plan to have children one day. Does that count as 0.3?

:)