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N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

nytimes.com

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Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#51

Post by andreyf »

infogulch wrote: post #45
nyolfen wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

their definition (via secret interpretation of USSID 18, according to Bill Binney[1]) is roughly that it's only collected if they actually go back and look at it at some point down the line. your web browsing history (or whatever) sitting on a hard drive in utah doesn't fall under this definition until they look at it. [1] https://youtu.be/r9-3K3rkPRE

So all it would take is for them to change their policy at any point in the future, even only for a few minutes, and instantly "collect" all current and historical emails from Americans.

No. Collection, unlike retention, of US Persons' data is governed via court decisions, not NSA policy.

If Congress doesn't like these retention / collection interpretation of their laws, they can clarify them in statute at any time. But they haven't and probably won't, because "retain everything for judicially approved retroactive collection" is incredibly useful e.g. when a bomb goes off at a marathon and a judge OKs the suspect's communications being reviewed.

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#52

Post by 1_2__3 »

elevenfist wrote: post #34
nyolfen wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

their definition (via secret interpretation of USSID 18, according to Bill Binney[1]) is roughly that it's only collected if they actually go back and look at it at some point down the line. your web browsing history (or whatever) sitting on a hard drive in utah doesn't fall under this definition until they look at it. [1] https://youtu.be/r9-3K3rkPRE

This isn't really a secret interpretation, I and a lot of people I knew noticed the same thing over a decade ago by reading the privacy policies of tech companies. Reading the data requires a warrant. Recording the data doesn't.

What bearing does a private company's privacy policy have on warrants? I think I see what you're getting at but what a private company consider warrant-worthy or not is irrelevant when discussing the governments position.

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#53

Post by frandroid »

mtgx wrote: post #2

> For technical reasons, the agency ended up collecting messages sent and received domestically as a byproduct of such surveillance, the officials said. Yeah, sure. Maybe don't do mass surveillance then? > The agency then proposed putting the bundled messages in a special repository to which analysts, searching through intercepts to write intelligence reports, would generally not have access. The court permitted that…

> discovered

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#55

Post by lern_too_spel »

nyolfen wrote: post #47
elevenfist wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't really a secret interpretation, I and a lot of people I knew noticed the same thing over a decade ago by reading the privacy policies of tech companies. Reading the data requires a warrant. Recording the data doesn't.

well, it's a secret interpretation of a particular executive order (EO 12333 signed by reagan, if you're curious), in the sense that it's not obvious on its face from reading the order that one should come to the same interpretation as they have, and that they don't officially divulge that interpretation. prior to snowden, almost everybody (you and your clever colleagues excluded, obviously) would think it was parano…

EO 12333 doesn't redefine collection. Data collected abroad under 12333 is still "acquired" according to the definition in the NSA's documents leaked by Snowden. Do you have any documents that you can point to that say otherwise?

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#57

Post by nyolfen »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #55
nyolfen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, it's a secret interpretation of a particular executive order (EO 12333 signed by reagan, if you're curious), in the sense that it's not obvious on its face from reading the order that one should come to the same interpretation as they have, and that they don't officially divulge that interpretation. prior to snowden, almost everybody (you and your clever colleagues excluded, obviously) would think it was parano…

EO 12333 doesn't redefine collection. Data collected abroad under 12333 is still "acquired" according to the definition in the NSA's documents leaked by Snowden. Do you have any documents that you can point to that say otherwise?

i should have been less ambiguous, sorry -- USSID 18 is derived from EO 12333, and USSID 18 nominally provides protections to US citizens from being spied upon; USSID 18 also is what has a secret interpretation by NSA lawyers that most people would probably feel is not in the spirit of the EO. here's a very nice writeup:

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/06/primer-executive-order...

section 4 outlines collection policy, beginning on page 6 of the pdf:

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/1118/CLEANEDFinal%20USSI...

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#58

Post by dmix »

I don't like how this article implies that they aren't saving and storing all of your emails unless you are communicating with a surveillance target. In reality they are sucking up all data in transit and only looking at it when it involves a foreign target.

But technically they are storing it regardless if you do or not, and we are basically trusting them to not look at it.

This seems to be the biggest issue that is never addressed in these articles.

Not to mention the FISA court process being oddly rubber-stampy. Despite claims that they try really-really hard to get each one right, as an explanation why every single one gets approved.

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#59

Post by andreyf »

dmix wrote: post #58

I don't like how this article implies that they aren't saving and storing all of your emails unless you are communicating with a surveillance target. In reality they are sucking up all data in transit and only looking at it when it involves a foreign target. But technically they are storing it regardless if you do or not, and we are basically trusting them to not look at it. This seems to be the biggest issue that is…

> Not to mention the FISA court process being oddly rubber-stampy. Despite claims that they try really-really hard to get each one right, as an explanation why every single one gets approved.

What's wrong with those claims? If the guidelines are clear and their lawyers are competent, they can turn down a request without bothering the court. Surely you'll agree DoJ lawyers can tell whether a request meets the criteria for a legal intercept the vast majority of the time? "Probable cause" isn't exactly novel case law.

Re: N.S.A Halts Collection of Americans’ Emails About Foreign Targets

#60

Post by Jerry2 »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #46
Jerry2 wrote: post #14

If they don't collect it under this program, they'll collect it under some other program. Or they'll just let one of the FIVE EYES partners spy on Americans. That's how they operate.

One of the main points of the Five Eyes agreement (originally BRUSA) is that the member states have a "no-spy agreement" with each other. That's why you see French leaders in the leaks but not heads of state of Canada or the UK. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/an-exclusive-club-the-fi... The rumor that they spy on each other and share that data is not substantiated in any leaks and specifically goes against one o…

>The rumor that they spy on each other and share that data is not substantiated in any leaks and specifically goes against one of the main planks, making it an especially strange rumor.

Huh? GCHQ has been spying on Americans for a long time. Here's the latest example: [0]

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/13/british-spie...

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