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DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

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Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#141

Post by Spooky23 »

sqeezy wrote: post #70
noir-york wrote: post #65

The lack of empathy in the comments is disconcerting. The post is a bit light on details (though the example given of flying 23 hours back-to-back continental flights is terrible if regular) the post deserves better than: 1. Pilots fly for fun. You made the wrong career move. 2. Capitalism! 3. you're lucky - imagine if you were a warehouse worker. He's a pilot, not an accountant or lawyer. He knows that there is pay…

He is blaming a foreign company which is hiring his own comapny for failures his company is not adressing. Sorry stupid article. I´s not DHL´s fault that Southern Airline is not able to compete and to organize. Btw in Germany there are Unions for that. https://www.vcockpit.de/en.html

That's a copout. This bullshit is unacceptable and shouldn't be allowed.

The big companies are pushing down the gruntwork to these companies and setting performance standards that require unfair or otherwise unreasonable labor practices. DHL and Amazon know full well what their procurement standards mean. The contractor just exists to push accountability out.

You see the same thing in the auto industry... there was a Bloomberg article a few months ago about this topic. Honda runs well-administrated, safe factories in Alabama. The supplier a mile down the road gets some crazy SLA for delivering parts that results in cut corners. (http://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/markets/inside-alabamas-auto-...)

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#142

Post by FireBeyond »

MarkvW wrote: post #132

It is EXTREMELY difficult to be empathetic with a pilot. As a class, they are the most FYIGM ultraconservative group. Now they feel the trickle down on their heads....

Well, if not pilots, what about private EMTs? Averaging minimum wage or 1-2% above, usually working 24 hour shifts, often without meal breaks, responding to 911 calls. They're a little less FYIGM.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#143

Post by toomuchtodo »

paulmd wrote: post #133
jim-jim-jim wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It then still sucks having to be in an aircraft for 23h, but he didn't have to work for 23h straight If you're away from what you'd rather be doing at the company's discretion, you're working.

You might think that, but the law actually currently uses a concept called "portal-to-portal". Companies only need to pay for time that is "integral and indispensable" to the labor in question. In short if you aren't actually earning money for the company, they don't necessarily need to pay you. It originated with mine workers who would have to take a long mine-elevator ride (30m+) to and from the vein, and companies…

Just because the current legal framework supports wage theft does not make it right. We can do better.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#144

Post by Dylan16807 »

noir-york wrote: post #65

The lack of empathy in the comments is disconcerting. The post is a bit light on details (though the example given of flying 23 hours back-to-back continental flights is terrible if regular) the post deserves better than: 1. Pilots fly for fun. You made the wrong career move. 2. Capitalism! 3. you're lucky - imagine if you were a warehouse worker. He's a pilot, not an accountant or lawyer. He knows that there is pay…

> The lack of empathy in the comments is disconcerting. The post is a bit light on details (though the example given of flying 23 hours back-to-back continental flights is terrible if regular) the post deserves better than: 1. Pilots fly for fun. You made the wrong career move. 2. Capitalism! 3. you're lucky - imagine if you were a warehouse worker.

The majority of the criticism is very legitimate, because the article does a terrible job of actually naming any problems beyond saying "it's bad now". Don't mischaracterize all those posts just so you can step in and be the voice of reason.

> Pay has been stagnant for the vast majority of workers for decades. We should be doing something about it, not dismissing it.

We should be doing something about it! But pay is barely mentioned in the article, and even that seems to be about the short-term effects of competition rather than decades-long pay stagnancy.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#145

Post by jonknee »

megablast wrote: post #72
dx034 wrote: post #60

> We work long hours, fly in dangerous conditions and go through years of training, but we do it because we understand that our work is vital to keeping our economy humming. No. Pilots become pilots because they love flying and because it pays well (mostly the former). Haven't heard of any pilot who chose the job because it's important for the economy.

> they love flying Do they really? I mean, if you love driving, do you become a bus driver? It is not like it is flying your cessna around the place.

Well if you love driving you can have just about any job and earn enough to buy and maintain a car. If you love flying you have a lot fewer career options that afford you to buy and maintain an aircraft.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#146

Post by m23khan »

to be honest, why not start by having cargo planes flown by AI in an unmanned aircraft?

You can have an office where drone-operator style aircraft operators can log in for 8 hour shift and then 'handover' to the next shift's operator before heading home.

I understand the sentiment of having an actual human(s) fly passengers but cargo is just -- cargo and it's not as if the skies are as complicated as the roads with rules and other manual driving cars.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#147

Post by neurotech1 »

correnos wrote: post #43
latch wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think transportation is an incredibly important (food!), but the way this is written seems incredibly tone-deaf. He should have focused on the facts (if there are any) about incident rates and length of time flying, instead of saying how his dream of connecting "our great country with the rest of the world" is being jeopardized.

The nature of commercial flying is such that actual incidents are pretty rare (150 or so a year recently[1]), and very very expensive. So taking the "data-driven" approach to pushing what's safe really isn't economically feasible, to say nothing of the ethics issues. Instead the principle of "if it seems unsafe, it's probably unsafe" applies. I believe the situation mentioned in the article of riding for fourteen hou…

A crash of a cargo jet (eg. converted airliner approx. $40m value) is such a rare event that "bean counters" can justify a certain level of risk.

A good comparison is SpaceX Falcon[0] or Orbital Sciences Antares launch vehicles. If they have a mishap, there is high probability that it'll take 6mo+ to return to flight. There is a significant cost to that ($300m+ cost to SpaceX, for vehicle replacement and compensation for delays). If UPS crashes a jet due to pilot fatigue[1] and nobody on the ground is hurt, the airline will continue flying with minimal interruption.

There have been issues with Fatigue causing accidents at both UPS[1] and FedEx[2]. If a cargo jet crashes but doesn't cause ground fatalities, the general public forgets fast. The UPS Airbus A300 crashed in Birmingham, AL with 'only' two crew fatalities. A passenger A300 would likely have resulted in many more fatalities.

Turkish Airlines had a cargo 747 crash[3] in Kyrgyzstan, killing 4 crew and 35 people in the village that it crashed into. This involved a contract operator, and received minimal attention in the world media.

In aviation there is a tendency towards "regulate by tombstone"[4] When an El Al 747 crashed shortly after takeoff in Amsterdam and killed 39 in an apartment complex, along with 4 crew, It was a huge story in the European media.[5] 747s were inspected, repaired and upgraded to prevent a recurrence.

Cargo airlines do a lot of "back of the clock" or overnight flying, which is considerably risky from a fatigue point of view. I'm actually amazed that more accidents haven't happened.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos-6

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPS_Airlines_Flight_1354

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedEx_Express_Flight_80

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_6491

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombstone_mentality

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_1862

PS. I had a fatigue related car accident in flight school. The "symptoms" can sneak up on a pilot and quickly become an extreme hazard.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#148

Post by neurotech1 »

m23khan wrote: post #146

to be honest, why not start by having cargo planes flown by AI in an unmanned aircraft? You can have an office where drone-operator style aircraft operators can log in for 8 hour shift and then 'handover' to the next shift's operator before heading home. I understand the sentiment of having an actual human(s) fly passengers but cargo is just -- cargo and it's not as if the skies are as complicated as the roads with r…

Two reasons:

1) Because if a cargo jet crashes a large number of ground fatalities is a possible outcome.[0][1]

2) Drone "operators" who are basically monitoring the AI and instruments will not be at peak focus when they need it most. Compare US Air 1549 [2] with Asiana 214 [3]. Capt. Sullenberger well rested and 110% focused on landing the jet, as safely as possible. The crew of Asiana 214 were obviously not focused 100% on landing and were unable to make a "manual" visual landing on a clear day in a normal functioning 777.

The USAF has a contingency plan to shoot down a drone if it drifts off course towards a populated area, or to prevent capture by non-friendly governments.[4]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_6491

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_1862

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214

[4] http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-amp-space/article/20...

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#149

Post by twothamendment »

Trucking isn't a lot different. My dad has worked for a few companies where all out breaking the law is the norm. It was expected and required. The big problem is if a driver is caught, who is it on? Only the driver. That is why he is lucky to be with a company that doesn't ask him to cook his log book.

Another company would not pay for time sitting at a loading dock or line. They say you must be at point X at 9:00. You are 10th in line. At noon you finally get unloaded. That was 3 hours of sitting without pay, but yet you aren't free to walk a way.

They also wouldn't pay for time to fuel the truck. Does the truck fuel itself? I think not. From what I know it is legal to require this task to be done, but not pay for it? Just to be clear, it is a company owned truck and he was an employee.

Labor laws are a mess and I'm sure there are all kinds of industries that are in a similar position.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#150

Post by dikdik »

specialist wrote: post #124
noir-york wrote: post #65

The lack of empathy in the comments is disconcerting. The post is a bit light on details (though the example given of flying 23 hours back-to-back continental flights is terrible if regular) the post deserves better than: 1. Pilots fly for fun. You made the wrong career move. 2. Capitalism! 3. you're lucky - imagine if you were a warehouse worker. He's a pilot, not an accountant or lawyer. He knows that there is pay…

There have been many first hand accounts from pilots about their industry's deteriorating work conditions. The denial and pedantry by the Freedom Market™ zealots is exhausting. Being highly trained and performing safety critical work does not exempt pilots from the predation of C (executive management) level exploitation. The root cause is the glut of labor, progressively reducing Labor's bargaining power, since the…

How about a movement that says, "If you can't earn a decent wage working 40 hours a week, sit under a bridge until you die for your country."

Reducing the labor pool and showing the elites they can build their own roads, make their own coffee, and fly their own planes unless they allow all citizens to live with dignity after a 40 hour work week.

I believe their is much more virtue in doing this than going to war to make the elites richer. We should celebrate those that opt out of exploitation even more so than "war heroes."

I know this will never happen, but it's nice to day dream.

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