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Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

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Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#141

Post by dcre »

hasenj wrote: post #68

People who have poor understanding of human nature will consider this an evidence of sexism. Think for a minute about why "Fifty shades of grey" is popular among female readers. If there are many stories are filled with males competing over resources and women (in the form of violent criminals kidnapping women and brave heroes rescuing them) then might it be that these kinds of stories are what people are looking for…

People who have a good understanding of sexism will consider your comment evidence you do not understand it.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#142

Post by zepto »

adsfqwop wrote: post #43
bbctol wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, of course. Since we live in a universe devoid of power relationships, it stands to reason that two groups described differently are in fact different, since no one has an interest in describing people other than accurately. Like how the Jews used to be all scheming and evil, but really cleaned up their act in the past few decades.

Right, of course, since we live in an universe devoid of genetic differences, it stands to reason that two groups described differently are in fact different. Genetic differences are FACTS. If you do not account for facts, you're operating in the twilight zone.

Genetic differences are facts, but if you think that our understanding of what they imply about society is factual, you simply don't understand science.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#143

Post by hasenj »

euyyn wrote: post #122
hasenj wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on what you mean by sexism. If you mean unfair discrimination against women, then that's not an evidence for it. If you mean natural difference between men and women that are implicitly understood by people, then yea you can call it sexism but it's not necessarily a bad thing.

What if he means socially-constructed expectations about the roles of men and women, which have detrimental effects on women?

Of course, I suspect that's what he means, but I also suspect that what he sees as "detrimental" effects on women are actually not.

But this is all a bit too abstract. Could you be specific of what these determintal effects are?

Please not that any attempt to "make up" some egalitarian idealistic expectations without any regard to the biological reality is definitely going to have detrimental effects on both men and women.

For example, if you try to push the idea that women, all women, should abandon the role of motherhood, because it's an "oppressive" societal expectation, and instead should chase after high paying careers, like the powerful men in society, then I think your idea (if it was like this, or similar to this) will have a detrimental effect on most women (if it were to take hold in society).

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#144

Post by hasenj »

rhcom2 wrote: post #139
coldtea wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The word already has a specific meaning. The definition is so broad as to be meaningless. Even having different boxing (the sport) categories for men and women could be construed as "sexism". Much less any implication that men and woman can have, as genders, different sensibilities and priorities, and not just because they were "raised that way" but also because of biological imperatives. E.g. something that we kno…

> Even having different boxing (the sport) categories for men and women could be construed as "sexism". I disagree that fits under prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination. But of course it can be overly broad if you apply it overly broadly.

How is it not stereotyping to assume that women are weaker than men?

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#145

Post by unignorant »

We did a similar analysis of gender stereotypes in the Wattpad online writing community last year: https://www.aaai.org/ocs/index.php/ICWSM/ICWSM16/paper/view/...

The conformity with existing stereotypes was pretty depressing, and they're perpetuated more or less equally be male and female authors.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#146

Post by rhcom2 »

hasenj wrote: post #144
rhcom2 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even having different boxing (the sport) categories for men and women could be construed as "sexism". I disagree that fits under prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination. But of course it can be overly broad if you apply it overly broadly.

How is it not stereotyping to assume that women are weaker than men?

Because sexual dimorphism is real, but it isn't as simple to apply that to things that can be affected by society and culture.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#147

Post by appetizer »

tomp wrote: post #118
appetizer wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alpha and beta classes were not living in a dystopia. Seemed quite nice. Freedom to pursue intellectual endeavors, freedom to have sex with whomever you wanted with no consequence, a life of privilege.

Except if they wanted to use their intellect to think critically, or wanted to move anywhere beyond sex...

Brave New World is widely considered a dystopia, but it is an introspection and satire on existing societies, which for many people actually are dystopias. This is a separation from stories that focus on the post-apocalyptic aspects primarily to create the genre of "scifi dystopia". Therefore, viewing Brave New World as an introspection only leaves the parts of the society that I like as the part to evaluate to see an ideal segment of society, colloquially called a utopia:

- I want to be at the top of the pyramid society

- I want there to be no consequences for promiscuity

- I want a calming mind altering drug that has no side effects

- I want peace and stability to focus on my intellectual tasks

Brave New World accomplishes that.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#148

Post by draw_down »

hasenj wrote: post #68

People who have poor understanding of human nature will consider this an evidence of sexism. Think for a minute about why "Fifty shades of grey" is popular among female readers. If there are many stories are filled with males competing over resources and women (in the form of violent criminals kidnapping women and brave heroes rescuing them) then might it be that these kinds of stories are what people are looking for…

Sorry, what are you talking about?

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#149

Post by appetizer »

tomp wrote: post #92
appetizer wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there is plenty of evidence to suggest that isn't an absolute. Men's efficacy at aggression is greater, when it happens, and that is what gets reported. I would say most of the research in this area is in abusive relationships. Where only heterosexual abuse from man to woman is noticed and acted on, which greatly distorts reality and cultural expectations. Many men are physically abused by women, and this is unde…

Yes, and women commit the majority of infanticides. Still, doesn't change the fact that most violent agressors (and victims of violent crime) are men.

again, down to the reporting.

will a human being pumped with testosterone and upper body strength be violent? a human being with a Y chromosome? thats currently what culture suspects given the reported information available in crime statistics.

I'm telling you that such reductionism isn't an absolute, as there is enough evidence from marginalized people and power dynamics to warrant altering the cultural assumptions. The culture alone (and the stories written in these cultures) is what perpetuates a lack of further insight into this.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#150

Post by hasenj »

zepto wrote: post #136
coldtea wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, if you're going to say things like "natural difference between men and women that are implicitly understood by people" (down thread), you're going to have to bring some double-blind, peer-reviewed evidence. Millenia of history is a kind of evidence. And the main answer back is "this history is the history of an oppression". Which doesn't even go to why would (all things being equal) one gender get to be the o…

Natural differences are things like 'mean height', and the ability to get pregnant. It is quite reasonable that past societies divided labor based on suitability of physical capacities for different tasks. It wouldn't be reasonable to call this 'oppression' per se. However the structure of roles human societies has always been mediated by the level of technology. Gender divisions of labor, class and caste systems etc…

Think about that history affected our biology (due to evolution). Consider the case with food. We now have an abundance of food rich with carbs and fats, but if we eat too much of them we get sick, because our bodies were designed with certain assumptions about environment. In this case, or natural environment.

Wouldn't the same be applicable to our social environment?

Also, technology is not permanent. Consider what would happen if society collapsed for whatever reason.

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