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DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

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Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#111

Post by jim-jim-jim »

sqeezy wrote: post #70
noir-york wrote: post #65

The lack of empathy in the comments is disconcerting. The post is a bit light on details (though the example given of flying 23 hours back-to-back continental flights is terrible if regular) the post deserves better than: 1. Pilots fly for fun. You made the wrong career move. 2. Capitalism! 3. you're lucky - imagine if you were a warehouse worker. He's a pilot, not an accountant or lawyer. He knows that there is pay…

He is blaming a foreign company which is hiring his own comapny for failures his company is not adressing. Sorry stupid article. I´s not DHL´s fault that Southern Airline is not able to compete and to organize. Btw in Germany there are Unions for that. https://www.vcockpit.de/en.html

I suppose Nike is also not to blame for taking advantage of the dire labor situation in places like Vietnam.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#112

Post by dx034 »

jim-jim-jim wrote: post #110
dx034 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the lack of empathy is because cargo pilots flying for Amazon still have it much better than warehouse workers. Both job wise (nicer to fly than to pack) and with regards to the pay. Aviation is one of the most regulated sectors in both the US and worldwide. The reason why DHL uses subcontractors is not because they want to save money, they aren't allowed to fly in the US. Which is somehow interesting because…

> It then still sucks having to be in an aircraft for 23h, but he didn't have to work for 23h straight If you're away from what you'd rather be doing at the company's discretion, you're working.

Yes but flying 23h straight sounds like the pilot could easily fall asleep which could've extreme consequences. In this case it just means that he's away from his family.

I know one long-haul pilot personally and he still enjoys those long trips. Yes you're away from the family and might fly to the city you don't like for the 5th time this month, but you still get to see a lot, have a prestigious job and nice views from the cockpit.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#113

Post by jbgreer »

granitosaurus wrote: post #8

Meaningless post, the only concrete example is: > For example, my colleagues and I have been asked to sit on 14-hour flights from the UW to the Middle East, only to then fly the same aircraft to Asia on another nine-hour journey Which is a lot to __ask__ for. Wasn't the company willing to pay overtime wages? I'm not a pilot, but to me it sounds like that's a pretty much unavoidable issue in the industry and the pilot…

Note that he didn't say he wasn't paid for that additional 9 hours. He just said he had to fly 9 more hours.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#114

Post by chrisbennet »

ash wrote: post #29
cies wrote: post #25

Unionize and do something about it. They are pilots! Well educated individuals. C'mon go help yourselves...

Unions sound nice in theory. But in practice, pilot unions work only for very senior pilots [1]. All other pilots in the union get paid much less and have worse working conditions. The detailed story about the effects of pilot unions: http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines [1]: Senior vs junior pilots gap is also the incentive for the airline owner to go bancrupt and start a new airline. So that there…

From the 2010 article ash linked to:

"The answer is to look at who controls the pilot's union: very senior pilots. The airline management is mostly interested in what percentage of its revenues are paid out to pilots; the distribution of the money among the pilots does not affect profitability. The very senior pilots on the other side of the table say "We need the most senior pilots to get $300,000 in pay and benefits." The airline's response is "The only way that could work is if we pay the new pilots $16,000 per year." The group of senior pilots responds "We can live with that."

Note that being classified as "junior" or "senior" has nothing to do with flying skills or experience. If Captain Sully were to start work today at a regional airline, he would earn between $16,000 and $20,000 per year, depending on the carrier, and fly as first officer. He was "senior" at US Airways, but is "junior" at the new carrier."

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#115

Post by brianwawok »

bb611 wrote: post #98
throwaway91111 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ehh, i mean for how much longer do we actually need pilots? I was under the impression they're mostly auto pilot these days anyway.

While they're punching a hole in the air, yes. Takeoff & landing in most modern commercial aircraft have some auto-throttle/auto-braking assistance, but those are still generally flown by hand on every flight. Note that the cargo airlines this article addresses are primarily working with a much older fleet of airplanes that the major passenger airlines got rid of, so their tech generally lags behind what you see on t…

Isn't it also low hanging fruit?

My napkin math says truck drivers are a MUCH higher % of ground shipping cost compared to airline pilot and flying cost.

Airlines have a lot of staff costs, but those would seem like it would be maintenance and ground crew which is even harder to automate.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#116

Post by rayiner »

dev_head_up wrote: post #75
dx034 wrote: post #60

> We work long hours, fly in dangerous conditions and go through years of training, but we do it because we understand that our work is vital to keeping our economy humming. No. Pilots become pilots because they love flying and because it pays well (mostly the former). Haven't heard of any pilot who chose the job because it's important for the economy.

I don't think I'd believe anyone who said they do job "for the good of the economy." It's a laughable statement really.

I think this view is very wrong. Lots of people take pride in the fact that they're doing some socially valuable job. That might not be their primary motivation but it's an important one.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#117

Post by cpwright »

Long haul truckers also have a difficult job, and are squeezed by large shippers.

People associate used glamour with flying, but I think that is because it was so expensive and most people were shut out. I think of a passenger airplane as a greyhound with wings. There's no reason not to think of a cargo plane as a semi with wings, in which case you shouldn't expect the pilots to be much better off than truck drivers.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#118

Post by vijayr »

dx034 wrote: post #97
noir-york wrote: post #65

The lack of empathy in the comments is disconcerting. The post is a bit light on details (though the example given of flying 23 hours back-to-back continental flights is terrible if regular) the post deserves better than: 1. Pilots fly for fun. You made the wrong career move. 2. Capitalism! 3. you're lucky - imagine if you were a warehouse worker. He's a pilot, not an accountant or lawyer. He knows that there is pay…

I think the lack of empathy is because cargo pilots flying for Amazon still have it much better than warehouse workers. Both job wise (nicer to fly than to pack) and with regards to the pay. Aviation is one of the most regulated sectors in both the US and worldwide. The reason why DHL uses subcontractors is not because they want to save money, they aren't allowed to fly in the US. Which is somehow interesting because…

cargo pilots flying for Amazon still have it much better than warehouse workers.

That maybe so, but it isn't right to say "suck it up, there are others who have it worse". Both groups are treated badly and both groups deserve empathy

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#119

Post by justsayinthro »

Welcome to Capitalism. In this case, there are no H1B pilots to put the blame on in this field. Like cheap H1B engineers from India are taking away our jobs, cheap field workers from Mexico are taking our jobs, cheap Chinese products. Emirates..I can go on. If anyone knows how Capitalism works, they will stop complaining that why their jobs are being replaced. Its not the cheap employees fault, its the very same capitalist organizations that you work for. Dont put the blame on a worker for taking away your job.

Re: DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading throughout industry

#120

Post by justsayinthro »

PietdeVries wrote: post #63
dx034 wrote: post #60

> We work long hours, fly in dangerous conditions and go through years of training, but we do it because we understand that our work is vital to keeping our economy humming. No. Pilots become pilots because they love flying and because it pays well (mostly the former). Haven't heard of any pilot who chose the job because it's important for the economy.

Isn't this exactly the definition of capitalism and what is at the basis of the entire American economy? You can complain that a foreign company is hiring you for what you consider below-par payment, but unless you find a better paying job elsewhere, isn't this what capitalism is all about? Next to that - aren't American companies doing exactly the same? Why does IBM have more employees in India (80.000 I believe) th…

Exactly. I often see and hear the "Engineers from India are cheap and they are taking away our jobs". Why blame the Engineers. Talk to your Capitalist organizations which are hiring them. A worker no matter where he/she is from is the same as you, works to earn his living.
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