Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes • Hacker News Board

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#221

Post by wutbrodo » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 7:00 AM UTC

dopu wrote: post #199

johngalt wrote: post #57

The problem isn't overbooking. The problem is not auctioning the seats higher when overbooked. I've seen a number of overbooked southwest flights and people can't line up fast enough for a $300 flight credit + next available flight. I can't imagine it ever going over $1k. IMHO if any airline should continue overbooking it's SWA. No first class, no assigned seats. Most of the flights are short range with multiple flig…

The problem is overbooking, though. Corporations are getting preferential treatment by being allowed to sell services which they're not going to fulfill. The boner people on HN have for objectivism really does get quite old.

> Corporations are getting preferential treatment by being allowed to sell services which they're not going to fulfill.

Does the contract of carriage say the service they're selling is a guaranteed flight? Spoiler: No.

I hate the air travel experience as much as the next guy, but for the life of me I can't understand the derangement that seems to take hold of people when they start talking about. All else held equal, reducing airline costs (for example, by increasing utilization as with overbooked flights) brings prices down. It reminds me of when everyone I knew started complaining about airlines charging for luggage. When I'd ask them "I never fly with luggage, why should I bear the cost (fuel, opportunity cost, etc) of you packing too much", the most I got was some sputtering about how they didn't see why prices would be affected, even from people who I know knew much better.

> The boner people on HN have for objectivism really does get quite old.

Don't confuse your economic illiteracy with other people's support of objectivism. The perspective you're describing isn't even particularly libertarian, let alone Objectivist (and no, I'm not personally a fan of either of those philosophies).

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#222

Post by sytelus » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 7:06 AM UTC

johngalt wrote: post #57

The problem isn't overbooking. The problem is not auctioning the seats higher when overbooked. I've seen a number of overbooked southwest flights and people can't line up fast enough for a $300 flight credit + next available flight. I can't imagine it ever going over $1k. IMHO if any airline should continue overbooking it's SWA. No first class, no assigned seats. Most of the flights are short range with multiple flig…

Another solution is even more simpler. After all seats gets booked, they should clearly mark overbooked tickets as "probable" tickets and heavily discount it + refund it if not eventually available. Keep in mind that airlines don't make huge profits per flight. Giving away $10K to 4 passengers is like giving away 80 seats or about 10 to 20% of revenue which could be almost all of their profits for that flight.

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#223

Post by ManlyBread » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 7:06 AM UTC

hueving wrote: post #218

zeroer wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, I agree the problem is not auctioning seats high enough. But the proximate issue is that United didn't offer cash, but $800 in United Fun Bux that are worthless for most people. The vouchers they were offering were only valid at dates United decided. The vouchers expired after a year. And they are offered in coupons for which you can only use one coupon per flight, and the excess value is lost. Practically all n…

Calling airline vouchers 'worthless to most people' is pretty stupid. The vast majority of the population would love to travel more and is constrained mainly by their budget. The proof of this is how Delta never seems to have problems and they constantly offer Delta dollars.

And then you have guys like me, who fly very rarely and only if no other options are available. Any voucher tied to flying is inherently worthless, because not only I've lost a lot of time but also the whole point of flying - being able to move quickly from one place to another - is defeated by the fact that I'm now stuck in the airport.

To top that off, if this happened during a holiday it means I'm getting a bad deal anyway - if I'd want money I wouldn't take vacation days in the first place.

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#224

Post by mattnewton » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 7:07 AM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #132

lisper wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem isn't overbooking. The problem is not auctioning the seats higher when overbooked. This. Oh so very much this. United could have avoided this whole debacle simply by not imposing price controls on the market for seats when it became a buyer rather than a seller.

Could they have averted disaster with money? It's astounding that there were no volunteers when they offered USD 800 for a seat, 800 dollars is a nice sum. Every single passenger on that airplane thought there was a catch involved, they were getting again 800 dollars in airline vouchers, which everyone knows have big gotchas attached. The airline has a trust problem, which won't improve anytime soon.

It was $800 in vouchers for other flights, not cold hard cash I believe. And even if it was actually $800, that is not worth missing a day of work unplanned for many people- the Doctor they dragged off the plane who had patients to see thought so.

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#225

Post by GordonS » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 7:15 AM UTC

johngalt wrote: post #57

The problem isn't overbooking. The problem is not auctioning the seats higher when overbooked. I've seen a number of overbooked southwest flights and people can't line up fast enough for a $300 flight credit + next available flight. I can't imagine it ever going over $1k. IMHO if any airline should continue overbooking it's SWA. No first class, no assigned seats. Most of the flights are short range with multiple flig…

I've seen this happen many a time with British Airways in the UK too - they just keep offering more money until someone volunteers to move to a later flight. Seems like a good way to manage overbooking, and I've never seen it not work.

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#226

Post by rangibaby » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 7:23 AM UTC

flukus wrote: post #215

johngalt wrote: post #57

The problem isn't overbooking. The problem is not auctioning the seats higher when overbooked. I've seen a number of overbooked southwest flights and people can't line up fast enough for a $300 flight credit + next available flight. I can't imagine it ever going over $1k. IMHO if any airline should continue overbooking it's SWA. No first class, no assigned seats. Most of the flights are short range with multiple flig…

Should I be able to sell you a car, have you pay for a car, have you come to collect the car and then tell you there's no car?

In this case, you're in the car, ready to go.

Wait!

I need that car so my brother can drop his kids off at their grandparents house a state over. You don't want to give it back? Tough, the police are on my side. Thanks for your understanding. Here's an $800 voucher for the next time you buy a car off me.

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#227

Post by stephenr » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 7:29 AM UTC

tomerico wrote: post #217

dopu wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is overbooking, though. Corporations are getting preferential treatment by being allowed to sell services which they're not going to fulfill. The boner people on HN have for objectivism really does get quite old.

Overbooking makes air travel more effective than, with less empty seats and less pollution per passenger. The way it eas handled can definitely be improved, but you can't argue that it is inherently bad.

> Overbooking makes air travel more effective than, with less empty seats and less pollution per passenger

> but you can't argue that it is inherently bad.

You're simplifying things a bit too much.

You can't go from:

- We want to make air travel more cost effective, and less damaging to the environment.

And arrive at:

- The only way to achieve this, is to sell more tickets than we have physical seats for, to ensure the plane is jam packed when it takes off.

There are always alternatives, Americans just seem to be fucking brilliant at ignoring any possible alternative than their first shitty attempt.

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#228

Post by ajmurmann » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 7:31 AM UTC

linkregister wrote: post #166

zeroer wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, I agree the problem is not auctioning seats high enough. But the proximate issue is that United didn't offer cash, but $800 in United Fun Bux that are worthless for most people. The vouchers they were offering were only valid at dates United decided. The vouchers expired after a year. And they are offered in coupons for which you can only use one coupon per flight, and the excess value is lost. Practically all n…

Vouchers like that are egregious. Now that it's too late, United is now offering up to $10k if they can't get someone to volunteer for less.

I don't understand why there even is a limit. What happens if nobody takes the 10k? Someone gets beaten up again? If they are certain someone will leave for 10k why have the limit at all?

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#229

Post by InclinedPlane » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 7:38 AM UTC

aresant wrote: post #12

This response feels knee jerk. It's been demonstrated in countless other threads (1) and articles (2) how economically important it is to overbook. Overbooking is central to airline profitability and their ability to provide flexibility - like partial refunds, or SW's "open tickets" policy on business select. As a consumer I appreciate these things and find them incredibly useful. United's response of "We'll push the…

Not all airlines overbook. Case in point, JetBlue, which as a practice does not overbook. United heavily overbooks, which is closely related to their practice of trying to offer the cheapest tickets on major competitive routes.

United lost over $2 billion last year. JetBlue made about $800 million in net income last year. So which strategy is "economically important" again?

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#230

Post by cbcoutinho » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 7:39 AM UTC

sytelus wrote: post #222

johngalt wrote: post #57

The problem isn't overbooking. The problem is not auctioning the seats higher when overbooked. I've seen a number of overbooked southwest flights and people can't line up fast enough for a $300 flight credit + next available flight. I can't imagine it ever going over $1k. IMHO if any airline should continue overbooking it's SWA. No first class, no assigned seats. Most of the flights are short range with multiple flig…

Another solution is even more simpler. After all seats gets booked, they should clearly mark overbooked tickets as "probable" tickets and heavily discount it + refund it if not eventually available. Keep in mind that airlines don't make huge profits per flight. Giving away $10K to 4 passengers is like giving away 80 seats or about 10 to 20% of revenue which could be almost all of their profits for that flight.

Those airlines take a risk by overbooking, and that risk can be penalized by a net negative profit if need be. If you're allowed to gamble, you need to be able to lose.