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Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

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Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#71

Post by Karunamon »

munificent wrote: post #49

I didn't follow the doctor-getting-dragged-off debacle closely but I have a question about the basic mechanics of what went down: When I've been boarding on flights, they do the overbooking announcement at the gate and get volunteers to take later flights there, before people board. That makes a lot more sense because, in the event that no one volunteers, the airline can simply refuse to let certain people on. They d…

How is it that the doctor was already seated when they "volunteered" him to not fly? That seems like the main fuck-up to me.

It is. Different parts of FAA rules and even United's contract of carriage apply once you're boarded. Overbooking doesn't even apply here - the doctor had a reserved confirmed seat.

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#72

Post by thesumofall »

toyg wrote: post #54
maccard wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main budget airline in Europe (Ryanair) doesn't overbook flights, and as far as I am aware never has done. They managed a net profit of 1.4 billion dollars last year.

Yep, the main difference in Ryanair's model is that basically all tickets are nonrefundable. This way, even if the plane leaves half-empty on the day despite being fully booked, it will have paid for itself - which is what should happen, really. What you lose by renouncing overbooking is the ability to change your ticket without paying for it again (which is what happen with Ryanair - fees to alter bookings are so hu…

That's not really an argument. Profits could have been even higher if they had leveraged overbooking. And some of Ryanair's tickets are certainly below marginal costs - making me wonder if really all fights pay for themselves that easily.

My guess why they don't use overbooking: it's really complicated. Both finding the right balance of overbooking as well as managing the procedures at the airport. Ryanair has simply decided in favor of simplicity forgoing some additional revenue

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#73

Post by CamperBob2 »

munificent wrote: post #49

I didn't follow the doctor-getting-dragged-off debacle closely but I have a question about the basic mechanics of what went down: When I've been boarding on flights, they do the overbooking announcement at the gate and get volunteers to take later flights there, before people board. That makes a lot more sense because, in the event that no one volunteers, the airline can simply refuse to let certain people on. They d…

The important detail that everyone likes to ignore is that the flight was not overbooked. It was filled to capacity. Everybody who wanted to be on the flight was on the airplane. Then United decided to reaccommodate four seated passengers to make room for four employees who were needed elsewhere.

Their contract of carriage allows them to kick you off under certain conditions, but that's not one of them. "Overbooking" didn't come into play at all in this case.

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#74

Post by WillPostForFood »

Veratyr wrote: post #56
chmaynard wrote: post #16

Southwest Airlines has the best website, best checked luggage policy, best change policy, and now no overbooking. The big four domestic airlines all treat coach passengers like cattle, but Southwest is the least predatory. Edit: Also, consider that Southwest is very profitable despite the fact that they don't have first class or business class sections on their aircraft. Yes, passengers pay different fares. But as fa…

To offer a counterpoint, Southwest also offers the worst boarding procedure, unless travelling alone or with kids. My wife and I were going on vacation and it was impossible to get seats together as we were pretty far back in the assigned line positions and by the time we got on the plane, there were no two vacant seats next to each other. After landing we discovered that checking in at the right time might get us fu…

Counter-counter point: Southwest boards faster, by far, than airlines using the standard pre-assigned method. That means less time sitting on the plane, or waiting to board the place. Also means less abuse of selling seat upgrades.

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#75

Post by codydh »

Veratyr wrote: post #56
chmaynard wrote: post #16

Southwest Airlines has the best website, best checked luggage policy, best change policy, and now no overbooking. The big four domestic airlines all treat coach passengers like cattle, but Southwest is the least predatory. Edit: Also, consider that Southwest is very profitable despite the fact that they don't have first class or business class sections on their aircraft. Yes, passengers pay different fares. But as fa…

To offer a counterpoint, Southwest also offers the worst boarding procedure, unless travelling alone or with kids. My wife and I were going on vacation and it was impossible to get seats together as we were pretty far back in the assigned line positions and by the time we got on the plane, there were no two vacant seats next to each other. After landing we discovered that checking in at the right time might get us fu…

I agree 100%. I often hear people talk about how Southwest offers such a great experience. I find the boarding process frustrating (and no more efficient, unfortunately) and the staff no better than my usual airline—either far less friendly, or hokey in a very contrived way.

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#77

Post by gregorymichael »

For anyone looking to switch airlines amidst all the news lately, I can't recommend Southwest more highly. Flew them out of Chicago for business the last two years -- their rewards, no-fee rebooking, etc. literally changed our lives. Wrote a bit about it here:

http://baugues.com/southwest

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#78

Post by toyg »

munificent wrote: post #49

I didn't follow the doctor-getting-dragged-off debacle closely but I have a question about the basic mechanics of what went down: When I've been boarding on flights, they do the overbooking announcement at the gate and get volunteers to take later flights there, before people board. That makes a lot more sense because, in the event that no one volunteers, the airline can simply refuse to let certain people on. They d…

It is indeed the main fuck up - despite knowing they were 4 seats short (because of their internal requirements - it wasn't overbooking) and had no takers on their initial offer ($400), they let everyone board. You are not supposed to do that, especially if the number of seats is that significant.

It's suspicious that they didn't even make an attempt at getting to the maximum offer ($1300) before forcing matters. To me it looks like they were under pressure to avoid a big delay, so they rushed through boarding and just went "fuck this" when nobody picked up the $800 offer.

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#79

Post by user5994461 »

gregschlom wrote: post #17

I have a question for the HN crowd: what would happen if airlines sold their seats at a fixed price and let customers resell them? For the sake of the discussion let's assume that all seats are in the same class (ie: economy) - there are no business / first class seats. So the idea would be: 1. All seats are sold at the same price, no matter how early or how late you buy. The price covers all the costs associated wit…

I guess one can't resell. Need to know the names and id of customers. Regulation stuff.

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#80

Post by sandworm101 »

chrishowlin wrote: post #64
sandworm101 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how it could. Only a handful of people on any one flight are ever bumped, on average. The bumped are normally put on other flights. The only 'win' is where someone doesn't show and also doesn't fly or get a refund. I cannot see how it is more than 1 or 2% of revenue. That said, perhaps I am dead wrong and overbooking is being used for darker purposes. Perhaps they are deliberately overselling flights at p…

Given the reason that airlines employ overselling, you would have to expect that it would impact the airline profitability, which could in theory lead to an increase in ticket prices. The bet SWA is making is that the revenue gain from overbooking is smaller than the consequential losses from bad publicity. Just think about the downside to United based on their share price alone, and now the increased focus that is o…

I don't want to fly on an airline with profit margins so slim. If a few hundred dollars one way or another is all that matters, I don't want to think about the decisions going on behind the scenes. These are extraordinarily expensive machines filled with hundreds of very human humans. You need more room for contingencies. I'd rather pay a few dollars more if that meant flying on a plane that wasn't constantly skirting the edge of profitability, one where employees have room to take reasonable and safe decisions.
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