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Thousands of computers now compromised with leaked NSA tools, researchers say

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Re: Thousands of computers now compromised with leaked NSA tools, researchers say

#161

Post by kakarot »

knowaveragejoe wrote: post #152
kakarot wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center I distinctly remember a point when it was not visible. That is how I discovered the plans to build a complex there years ago. This was probably remedied not long after we started catching wind. I'm sure it would not be difficult for Google, et al. to retroactively "fix" their public imagery data.

I wouldn't rule it out, but I'm left scratching my head as to the motivation why. I remember reading about said data center years ago, before they even broke ground. The location was known at that time, too. If the physical location was of such importance to censor it from satellite images, why then retroactively add those images back in?

Heh, I'm wondering if my memory has muddied a bit and I actually just saw the foundation being laid down, though I'm pretty sure it was black for a while. Either way seeing that sparked my interest and led to me finding out about plans to build a data center, which were largely conjecture and rumor at the time. At that point we really were all a bunch of conspiracy theorists without any hard evidence.

Re: Thousands of computers now compromised with leaked NSA tools, researchers say

#162

Post by eternalvision »

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #150
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it's hard to tell where the line between (cyber) warfare and social engineering can be drawn. Is what Facebook did[1] (does?) warfare? I sometimes like to dabble in hyperbolic alarmism, so I'm inclined to want to say yes. Maybe it's a sign of progress that we now consider emotional manipulation "war". It's probably less harmful, by all accounts, than slaughtering each other. 1. https://www.theguardian.com/techno…

I agree on all accounts. Facebook testing emotional manipulation is corporate psyops weapons development. Marshall McLuhan postulated back in the 1970 about the future of warfare: >World War I a railway war of centralization and encirclement. World War II a radio war of decentralization concluded by the Bomb... >World War III is a guerilla information war with no division between military and civilian participation

Cult-driven intellectual authorities believe that designing and firing rainbow glitter embedded bullets of absolute power at rebels is a justified path to social control. Tech such as FB's is misused accordingly.

Re: Thousands of computers now compromised with leaked NSA tools, researchers say

#163

Post by lern_too_spel »

kakarot wrote: post #157
lern_too_spel wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Citing Snowden's documents would involve actually giving me a link. I gave you a link to a slide diagramming PRISM and a link to the document describing the email envelope program that had shut down. > I did not say PRISM was mass wiretapping but it is indeed part of the surveillance suite of NSA programs. I understand you now concede that PRISM isn't the nefarious new-datacenter-requiring mass data collection you…

Here you are again, twisting my words! Amazing. No, I did not say anything like that about PRISM. I said exactly what I said-- that I was not clear enough in my original post, but I clarified myself immediately after in response to you. I wrote that original post in a hurry and did not take the time to read over it like I usually do. And I've already elaborated on how the NSA uses other agencies and businesses as too…

> FISA being used to demand all of verizon's phone records! All of them! And what are one of the programs that FISA feeds into? Oh yeah, that's right. PRISM

This explicitly isn't PRISM, and this isn't ongoing. Moreover, Snowden's documents showed that this data wasn't used for surveillance. The data was anonymized and a system (not PRISM) was built on top of it that could only perform a limited set of graph queries to find associates of known threats to national security. To deanonymize a node, the government would have to request another court order.

You have once again demonstrated that you don't know what PRISM is, so is it any wonder that I keep calling you out on it?

Re: Thousands of computers now compromised with leaked NSA tools, researchers say

#165

Post by kakarot »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #163
kakarot wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here you are again, twisting my words! Amazing. No, I did not say anything like that about PRISM. I said exactly what I said-- that I was not clear enough in my original post, but I clarified myself immediately after in response to you. I wrote that original post in a hurry and did not take the time to read over it like I usually do. And I've already elaborated on how the NSA uses other agencies and businesses as too…

> FISA being used to demand all of verizon's phone records! All of them! And what are one of the programs that FISA feeds into? Oh yeah, that's right. PRISM This explicitly isn't PRISM, and this isn't ongoing. Moreover, Snowden's documents showed that this data wasn't used for surveillance. The data was anonymized and a system (not PRISM) was built on top of it that could only perform a limited set of graph queries t…

What isn't PRISM? FISA? No shit. I said it feeds into PRISM. And I did not say it is ongoing. And I think you have a warped view of what surveillance is because a system used to query networks and other identifying information is a dragnet surveillance tool. You just refuse to be wrong here.

And a lot of the hooplah about these immoral dragnet tools is not only the fact that they partially target American citizens (after NSA executives said under oath, in very particular terms, that they do not collect files on American citizens) is that it was being accessed by employees without court orders.

Pre 9/11, maybe you could have made a case about this "anonymization" being legitimate. There were certainly programs in the work that attempted to incorporate homomorphic encryption into their design. But these have been gutted and reformed into what we have today.

You have to wonder, what are these tools being used for? They certainly haven't been publicly attributed to stopping any terrorist activities. If you don't think these systems, put in place by spy agencies with the legal ability to lie about their internal operations, are being used to spy on their targets (which is the general public) then what the hell do you think they are for?

Re: Thousands of computers now compromised with leaked NSA tools, researchers say

#166

Post by lern_too_spel »

kakarot wrote: post #165
lern_too_spel wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FISA being used to demand all of verizon's phone records! All of them! And what are one of the programs that FISA feeds into? Oh yeah, that's right. PRISM This explicitly isn't PRISM, and this isn't ongoing. Moreover, Snowden's documents showed that this data wasn't used for surveillance. The data was anonymized and a system (not PRISM) was built on top of it that could only perform a limited set of graph queries t…

What isn't PRISM? FISA? No shit. I said it feeds into PRISM. And I did not say it is ongoing. And I think you have a warped view of what surveillance is because a system used to query networks and other identifying information is a dragnet surveillance tool. You just refuse to be wrong here. And a lot of the hooplah about these immoral dragnet tools is not only the fact that they partially target American citizens (a…

> I said it feeds into PRISM.

It doesn't. That's my point. How many more times are you going to show that you don't know what PRISM is while claiming that you do?

Also, surveillance is, by definition, close observation. Merely having anonymized phone metadata is not surveillance any more than having access to Google Maps satellite imagery without any other data sources to join to. More specifically, it isn't mass wiretapping, which as you recall was your original claim that you have yet to substantiate, instead pointing to this metadata program that I had earlier used to show you that no evidence exists for mass wiretapping of Americans.

Re: Thousands of computers now compromised with leaked NSA tools, researchers say

#167

Post by kakarot »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #166
kakarot wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What isn't PRISM? FISA? No shit. I said it feeds into PRISM. And I did not say it is ongoing. And I think you have a warped view of what surveillance is because a system used to query networks and other identifying information is a dragnet surveillance tool. You just refuse to be wrong here. And a lot of the hooplah about these immoral dragnet tools is not only the fact that they partially target American citizens (a…

> I said it feeds into PRISM. It doesn't. That's my point. How many more times are you going to show that you don't know what PRISM is while claiming that you do? Also, surveillance is, by definition, close observation. Merely having anonymized phone metadata is not surveillance any more than having access to Google Maps satellite imagery without any other data sources to join to. More specifically, it isn't mass wir…

> PRISM is the program that brings the FBI's FISA electronic communication wiretaps into the NSA's databases

> It doesn't.

> Merely having anonymized phone metadata is not surveillance

OK. Not only are you inconsistent but your arguments are based around ill-defined terminology. Goodbye now.

Re: Thousands of computers now compromised with leaked NSA tools, researchers say

#168

Post by lern_too_spel »

kakarot wrote: post #167
lern_too_spel wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I said it feeds into PRISM. It doesn't. That's my point. How many more times are you going to show that you don't know what PRISM is while claiming that you do? Also, surveillance is, by definition, close observation. Merely having anonymized phone metadata is not surveillance any more than having access to Google Maps satellite imagery without any other data sources to join to. More specifically, it isn't mass wir…

> PRISM is the program that brings the FBI's FISA electronic communication wiretaps into the NSA's databases > It doesn't. > Merely having anonymized phone metadata is not surveillance OK. Not only are you inconsistent but your arguments are based around ill-defined terminology. Goodbye now.

How have I been inconsistent? I've repeatedly stated that collecting phone call metadata isn't wiretapping. Wiretapping is well-defined and requires collecting the content of conversations.

Re: Thousands of computers now compromised with leaked NSA tools, researchers say

#169

Post by kakarot »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #168
kakarot wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> PRISM is the program that brings the FBI's FISA electronic communication wiretaps into the NSA's databases > It doesn't. > Merely having anonymized phone metadata is not surveillance OK. Not only are you inconsistent but your arguments are based around ill-defined terminology. Goodbye now.

How have I been inconsistent? I've repeatedly stated that collecting phone call metadata isn't wiretapping. Wiretapping is well-defined and requires collecting the content of conversations.

Surveillance != wiretapping. MYSTIC is the wiretapping program I was referring to. Only MYSTIC. It is indeed wiretapping because they recorded calls and SMS.

You are difficult to argue with because you continue to either misinterpret or warp my words. Goodbye now.

Re: Thousands of computers now compromised with leaked NSA tools, researchers say

#170

Post by lern_too_spel »

kakarot wrote: post #169
lern_too_spel wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How have I been inconsistent? I've repeatedly stated that collecting phone call metadata isn't wiretapping. Wiretapping is well-defined and requires collecting the content of conversations.

Surveillance != wiretapping. MYSTIC is the wiretapping program I was referring to. Only MYSTIC. It is indeed wiretapping because they recorded calls and SMS. You are difficult to argue with because you continue to either misinterpret or warp my words. Goodbye now.

You originally claimed that the NSA was performing mass wiretapping on AT&T and Verizon. MYSTIC has nothing to do with those companies or with Americans, as I've already stated.

It appears that you finally agree both that PRISM isn't mass wiretapping and that AT&T and Verizon aren't being mass wiretapped. Good. You appear to have learned something even if you now claim to have known all along.

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