Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't • Hacker News Board

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#251

Post by jpambrun » Thu, Apr 27, 2017, 12:31 AM UTC

wutbrodo wrote: post #218

jpambrun wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not enough. I have a bachelor's degree and Ph.D. in Engineering, but I still cannot call myself either engineer (I'm not a member of the Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec) nor Doctor. And it is fine. Professional orders can disbar you temporally and impose training for any competence or ethical shortcoming. Their role is solely to protect the public. This is the 'systems of accreditation, checking for competency' t…

> Most Doctors are not grossly negligent, but if you find one that is what are you gonna do? There is no one to complain to without professional orders. Um, the legal system? Have you honestly never heard of the legal concept of malpractice? "Gross negligence" is very much included in it.

I think our legal systems are just too different.

Malpractice is handled by the professional order's Syndic along with all sorts of minor offences such as misrepresentation.

It is part of the judicial system. It can impose fine, training, disbarment, etc. As a side note, the American obsession with suing everything just look backwards to most of us.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#252

Post by awinter-py » Thu, Apr 27, 2017, 1:33 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #107

awinter-py wrote: post #33

We need to design better due process for fines. Privacy may be part of the problem -- yes it would suck to publicize everyone's whole history of administrative fines, but making this information public by default would limit corrupt application of the rules.

What's wrong with this? The Board asked him to stop calling himself an engineer, without any fines, and he agreed. He broke the agreement, repeatedly, at which point they launched an investigation and then slapped him with a very small fine. I see absolutely zero evidence of corruption here. It seems a lot of readers are only looking at matters from Jarlstrom's side, and completely ignoring the fact of his bad faith.

you're not exactly wrong.

In my opinion this is a first amendment case. The supreme court created something called 'strict scrutiny' to analyze cases where other laws encroach on the first amendment. Under strict scrutiny, the government needs to prove a compelling state interest to restrict free speech.

Does the state of oregon have a compelling interest in preventing this person from informing a state agency, via private correspondence, of a safety-related calibration issue in their traffic light system?

If you think so, interested to hear your argument.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#253

Post by smsm42 » Thu, Apr 27, 2017, 2:09 AM UTC

takk309 wrote: post #89

The issue that the Board has is that he claimed to be an engineer in a public forum. The Boards interpretation of "engineer" in this context was to mean Traffic Engineer. The Board warned Järlström that he was in violation of the Law and asked him to stop claiming to be an engineer, to which he agreed. It was later, when he continued to claim to be an engineer that legal action was taken. It is also of note, and stat…

That's outrageously stupid that saying "I am an engineer" is qualified as "unlicensed practice" and that you can be fined by just describing your qualifications. It's not like he opened a company and took a contract pretending to be licensed, he just described his level of knowledge. Special interest groups privatizing common language is outrageous and shameful. It's also an obvious 1st amendment violation and probably the only reason it's not overturned yet is because nobody brought a lawsuit about it - and it'd be probably hard for a private person to support such a lawsuit over $500. Somebody like ACLU should look into it though, if they're still caring about freedom of speech.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#254

Post by smsm42 » Thu, Apr 27, 2017, 2:14 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #165

echion wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue that the Board has is that he claimed to be an engineer in a public forum. That's not the only issue the Board said it had, and not the most important one at that: > [...] you continued to use the title "engineer" in your communication with Board staff and, of more concern , are the documents you provided that indicate you may have engaged in unlicensed engineering work in Oregon. (emphasis mine). It's th…

No he is not being punished for thinking and speech. You're treating the documents containing his proposal as a completely separate issue from his claim of professional status, but the documents are a doubling down upon his original and repeated false claim of being an engineer, which claim he was warned he should not be making. If I hold out a mystery pill and invite you to swallow it, how you react will differ cons…

He did not give a mystery pill to an unwashed commoner. He wrote to a specialist board who are supposed to be experts. If they claim they were misled by his claims they all should be fired, since they are not competent enough to distinguish between a real engineer and a quack. But looks like they weren't misled at the least, and he wasn't a quack either - they just went on a power trip, probably because he annoyed them by questioning them.

> I am likely to have the appropriate medical knowledge that would justify my suggestion.

One can have relevant knowledge without being an MD. E.g. by being a biochemist. Having license for particular profession is not the same as having knowledge.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#255

Post by erikpukinskis » Thu, Apr 27, 2017, 6:19 PM UTC

I think I will stop using the word engineer entirely. I'm just going to refer to all "engineers" as structural designer, mechanical designer, etc. They want "engineer" to have legal ramifications then it should be used only in legal documents, not colloquial use.

I appreciate the existence of the certification, but I think using the same word for the certification and the work is an attempt to confuse the public about the difference between a licensed engineer and someone applying the same methods without a license.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#256

Post by sctb » Thu, Apr 27, 2017, 8:26 PM UTC

elevenfist wrote: post #228

lstroud wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I understand your exhaustion, I wonder why they aren't suing companies providing certifications with 'Engineer' in the title. Say, Cisco Certified Engineer, MCSE, etc. It would seem that it would be a far more egregious violation to offer to certify someone as an engineer. Do they not go after the companies claiming to provide these resources as a service? I'm just wondering why it seems so selectively enforced…

> While I understand your exhaustion, I wonder why they aren't suing companies providing certifications with 'Engineer' in the title. ... quoting from a comment above from someone who is on the same side of the argument as you are. "By reviewing, critiquing, and altering an engineered ITE formula, and submitting the critique and calculations for his modified version of the ITE formula to members of the public for con…

Please comment civilly and substantively on HN or not at all.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#257

Post by elevenfist » Thu, Apr 27, 2017, 10:57 PM UTC

sctb wrote: post #256

elevenfist wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While I understand your exhaustion, I wonder why they aren't suing companies providing certifications with 'Engineer' in the title. ... quoting from a comment above from someone who is on the same side of the argument as you are. "By reviewing, critiquing, and altering an engineered ITE formula, and submitting the critique and calculations for his modified version of the ITE formula to members of the public for con…

Please comment civilly and substantively on HN or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Sorry, I can do better, just a bit tired of seeing shallow comments on hn.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#258

Post by EpicEng » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 10:41 PM UTC

tn135 wrote: post #250

EpicEng wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was previously warned, he accepted the warning and promised not to do it again... and then he of course did it again. What's your moral concern exactly?

My moral concern is some "board" gets to become the sole arbitrator of who is an "engineer". Ideally the board's warning must have been thrown into dustbin.

Why exactly? Are engineers somehow special? What about RN's, and architects, and home inspectors? All licensed positions. I could list a thousand different role which require licensing because a mistake in their field has serious repercussions, especially regarding safety.

I don't think most software devs should require licensing, but they're not doing what I and many others would consider 'real' engineering. At least, their mistakes don't often have serious impact on people. We're not talking about that here though, we're talking about civil engineering.