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Robinhood stock trading app confirms $110M raise at $1.3B valuation

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Re: Robinhood stock trading app confirms $110M raise at $1.3B valuation

#11

> Robinhood also earns money from rebates its gets for directing its order flow to broker dealers, though Bhatt insists “We do not sell data to anyone. We have never sold data to anyone. We just do not do that.” Just so everyone knows, order flow from unsophisticated investors is considered a valuable resource because, when filling it, you know that you're more informed than the person trading against you.

I don't think that's a very good way of putting it.

I'd say its more correct to say orders from retail investors are valuable because:

1) They tend to be a relatively equal number of buys and sells. This is figurative manna from heaven for market makers

2) They don't mind crossing the spread, also a gift for market makers.

3) They can't really move the spread

and probably least importantly......

4) they aren't trading based on some sort of knowledge most of the time, ie they are typically just buying because they buy a bit each month or selling because they need money or selling to re-balance,

ie they aren't trading due to market signals, but rather due to their own personal situations.

Re: Robinhood stock trading app confirms $110M raise at $1.3B valuation

#12
Pretty skeptical about the value here.

>A Gold subscription lets users borrow up to double the money in their account to trade on margin with leverage

Users pay money to be loaned money? How is this different than a microloan service?

>Robinhood also earns money from rebates its gets for directing its order flow to broker dealers

That means, presumably, the dealers are profiting in some way by handling trades from investors less informed than themselves.

At the end of the day, Robinhood may not have trading fees, but the underlying brokers it works with do. I don't see how a microloans service and some kickbacks are enough to compensate. Presumably they are hemorrhaging money right now and the VC money is subsidizing novice investor's trading fees.

Despite the name "Robinhood" like this is giving money to the poor, this service seems extremely predatory to its users, offering them cheap loans to gamble with on the stock market and taking kickbacks from the exact type of people Robin Hood was stealing from.

Re: Robinhood stock trading app confirms $110M raise at $1.3B valuation

#13

> Robinhood also earns money from rebates its gets for directing its order flow to broker dealers, though Bhatt insists “We do not sell data to anyone. We have never sold data to anyone. We just do not do that.” Just so everyone knows, order flow from unsophisticated investors is considered a valuable resource because, when filling it, you know that you're more informed than the person trading against you.

[deleted]

Re: Robinhood stock trading app confirms $110M raise at $1.3B valuation

#15
I think the most surprising aspect is their desire to offer a similar referral scheme as Uber.

"Now when one user refers someone else who signs up, both get one share of a randomly selected company from a set that includes Facebook, Apple, RiteAid, Ford, and General Electric."

Re: Robinhood stock trading app confirms $110M raise at $1.3B valuation

#16
“But ‘how are you going to make money long-term?’ has been a question mark” Bhatt says. Gold has answered that question.” A Gold subscription lets users borrow up to double the money in their account to trade on margin with leverage

Wow, so that's effectively opening up new easy to get credit vehicles for unsophisticated investors. How could that go wrong?

Even if you are a professional trader you'll take a bath on margin over the long run. They are incentivizing what is effectively borrowing for gambling and that is their long term revenue strategy? Might be a great money maker but it certainly is playing with some really big barrels of fire.

"Three things ruin people: drugs, liquor, and leverage - Charlie Munger"

edit: The point here is not that Margin is a new service, yes every brokerage has it, it's that it is irresponsible to use Margin if you are not a sophisticated investor. Its even more irresponsible to push leverage onto unsophisticated investors.

Not everyone is going to understand the risks of leverage and if Robinhood makes it as easy as candy crush to trade on leverage, enough gamified users are "playing" stock market with real money and a margin call happens during a huge downturn, it will be exceptionally nasty.

Re: Robinhood stock trading app confirms $110M raise at $1.3B valuation

#17
post #7
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great catch, missed that during the article skim. Doesn't this also enable front-running? Regardless, this is useful info for HFT funds, right?

They explicitly call out in the article they don't do that

No, they didn't. It was more of a "non-denial".

> Robinhood also earns money from rebates its gets for directing its order flow to broker dealers, though Bhatt insists “We do not sell data to anyone. We have never sold data to anyone. We just do not do that.” There have been misconceptions that Robinhood sells high-frequency traders its data to help them trade against the startup’s customers. But Bhatt says “The rules around this stuff as so tight. We’re not a social media company. If we even step slightly out of line with anything we all go to jail.”

Basically all they're claiming is that they're following the rules - i.e. if the rules allow selling "data" (or something that we won't call "data" but "order flow" or something) to HTFs or banks' dark pools, they're not saying they don't do it!

Re: Robinhood stock trading app confirms $110M raise at $1.3B valuation

#19
post #10

My understanding is that if you trade through a platform like this, that's monetizing through order flow, you're getting screwed by HFTs. I.e. AFAIK Robinhood doesn't need to be selling the data to HFTs (which they don't do), for you to get screwed by them. Anyone here in the space who can quantify the "hidden" cost you incur because of more sophisticated traders trading against you? It feels like working with a brok…

All the major retail brokers sell their order flow, so you generally eat this cost no matter who you use. In addition, the hidden cost is fractions of a penny on the dollar (so still better than the $5-7 a regular broker charges per trade anyways).

Re: Robinhood stock trading app confirms $110M raise at $1.3B valuation

#20

> Robinhood also earns money from rebates its gets for directing its order flow to broker dealers, though Bhatt insists “We do not sell data to anyone. We have never sold data to anyone. We just do not do that.” Just so everyone knows, order flow from unsophisticated investors is considered a valuable resource because, when filling it, you know that you're more informed than the person trading against you.

Can you extrapolate on order flow from unsophisticated investors? Why is it valuable?

Lets say you're unsophisticated. You say "I like my 1080ti, so I'll buy some NVIDIA stock." I'm a tech stock expert, I know NVIDIA is on a downward slope because its over-valued right now. I tell you "Sure kid, here's a promise for 100 shares at today's price of $50 each." I take your $5,000. Everyone is happy. Joe Investor doesn't actually have the stock in his possession just yet.

I buy the stock myself a few days later, but at $40 each for a grand total of $4,000, and I just made $1,000. You get your 100 shares, I make $1,000 plus fees. Now imagine doing this hundreds or thousands of times a day. Or I simply sell my own existing supply conveniently to my own buyer and I dictate the fees, which has value in itself. Sure I'm only making $5 per head per month with these low-end customers, but now I have 100,000 customers instead of 1,000.

A savvy investor wouldn't ask to buy these shares. He'd know that he's better off shorting himself. Unsavvy investors are all over the place and if you can get them to come to you, you can make a lot of money off them with minimal investment or risk.

On top of that you can offer them predatory loans for investing. This app offers loans, no idea on terms, but I can't imagine them being very nice. They put up collateral like their car or home, so you have no risk. They fuck up, or not, it doesn't matter, you're at least getting fees and probably screwing them in other ways. Oh and you're getting interest on that loan as well.

edit: Front Loading absolutely happens, it can be done in a way that's difficult or impossible to detect and has a lot of loopholes as well.

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