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Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

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Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#221
post #89

The issue that the Board has is that he claimed to be an engineer in a public forum. The Boards interpretation of "engineer" in this context was to mean Traffic Engineer. The Board warned Järlström that he was in violation of the Law and asked him to stop claiming to be an engineer, to which he agreed. It was later, when he continued to claim to be an engineer that legal action was taken. It is also of note, and stat…

During college in Indiana, a couple of us software engineers wanted to take the state's "Professional Engineer" certification exam. Just to see how we'd do. We were told plainly, "you cannot register for the PE exam because the state of Indiana does not recognize software engineers as 'real engineers'". However, if we were Electrical Engineers and wrote embedded software, that would make us a "real engineer". They ex…

"real engineer" here. Computer Engineer freshly graduated from GT and looking for a job in embedded devices. I can tell you on the other side of the coin it's also annoying to be muddling through a sea of software "engineering" jobs to actually find one for an entry level engineer. I believe the problem is that software engineering started as a buzzword then got its degree paths. Also I am under the impression your curricula is nowhere near as rigorous as required for engineering.

I have been on HN since the beginning of my studies and after a decade of lurking I have made an account. If anyone is hiring CE's or would like to help me out of the good of their heart please PM me. I have had a tough time landing an entry job since medical reasons extended my college time to 7 years.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did I say it was an achievement? Was the OP an achievement? The simplification was inherently incorrect, and contradictory. To say that I "feel" that I had a point is nonsense. There's no "feeling" here, it's simply a stated factual point. All you have to do is search for "mechanical engineer" or something along those lines.

A narrow pedantry rarely leads to insight. The basic point that 'engineer' is a restricted title in many jurisdictions and contexts is sound, notwithstanding your emotional aversion to it. This has been explained through the thread at length, often by people more eloquent than I.

Where have I disputed that it is a restricted title in some jurisdictions?

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't fine him at first. They warned him not to do it, and explained why. He acknowledged this and agreed in September 2015 not to present himself as an engineer again. Then he changed his mind and resumed doing so. Barry Schwartz specializes in telling only half the case to people who know nothing about law, while leaving out any facts that would show his clients in a bad light. Like he'll tell you about the p…

I'm not an expert in Barry Schwartz but I think you're​ just making his argument stronger. Focusing on the usage of the term "engineer" when what was in discussion was the traffic lights, which was much important, shows such a shortsightness. Of course, everybody was just doing their job, just following the rules.

Its more of you shouldn't give legal advice, and let people assume you are a lawyer, if you are not a lawyer.

Presumably, if he prefixed this with IANAE, there would be no issue. Well, in this case, a traffic engineer.

But essentially he was defining himself to have greater authority over the subject matter than he actually had, which while here is not really problematic, the act itself often can be.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#224
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mistake to pick out individual phrases and treat them as if they were mathematical equalities. Look at the preamble to that section: 'As used in ORS 672.002 (Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325) to 672.325 (Civil penalties), unless the context requires otherwise: ' It's terrifying because you are reading bits of it out of context and extrapolating incorrectly to the broadest scope imaginable. I perform some…

> You are not going to get fined just for calculating the hypotenuse of a triangle in public If the argument is "he said he was an 'engineer' and he isn't licensed", that's fine. And the Board's Final Report contains a lot of language establishing that, and for that he can be fined. But the Board's Report goes out of its way to say that ORS 672.005(c) and ORS 672.002 define "practicing engineering" as quite close to…

If you go around claiming to be a doctor, but don't do anything related to being a doctor and in no way operate as a doctor, then presumably this isn't a crime to be fined.

If you tell people you are not a doctor, and you do doctor things, then there's no misunderstanding, and nothing to fine

But if you tell people you are a doctor (or let people think you are), when you are not, and you do doctory things, then there's trouble.

It seems reasonable to me that it requires both the misunderstanding and the potential to create public harm for it to be a crime/fine-able.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't fine him at first. They warned him not to do it, and explained why. He acknowledged this and agreed in September 2015 not to present himself as an engineer again. Then he changed his mind and resumed doing so. Barry Schwartz specializes in telling only half the case to people who know nothing about law, while leaving out any facts that would show his clients in a bad light. Like he'll tell you about the p…

I'm not an expert in Barry Schwartz but I think you're​ just making his argument stronger. Focusing on the usage of the term "engineer" when what was in discussion was the traffic lights, which was much important, shows such a shortsightness. Of course, everybody was just doing their job, just following the rules.

You are being played.

Jarlstrom was informed that he wasn't entitled to hold himself out as an engineer and agreed not to do so. The reasons not to do that are valid, for the simple reason that it pretends to a level of expertise he does not have, when trying to influence how public infrastructure is run.

I have said many times that Jarlstrom could simply have pitched his idea without claiming to be an engineer. Why didn't he? Probably because people did not listen to him as readily if he did not use that title.

what was in discussion was the traffic lights, which was much important

Why is it so important? Only because Jarlstrom says it is and claims that his solution is world-changing. But this is sales talk. If his solution is really that good, then he should be happy to present it as an amateur, without pretensions to qualifications he does not hold.

His proposal sounds OK, but I know nothing of traffic engineering and can't really evaluate it. Neither, I suspect can anyone else except the one person who posted that they are a licensed professional traffic engineer. It's unclear what, if any, assertions Jarlstrom is making about the benefits of implementing his scheme. Will it save any lives or reduce the number of accidents? No idea. All we have is this: '"hen you make a turn you slow down but that's not accounted for in their solution, so people are getting caught in red light cameras for making safe turns.'

OK, I understand he is not crazy about red light tickets because his wife got one when driving around their hometown, but so what? What is so overwhelmingly urgent about this that the Board should make it heir priority? Why doesn't Jarlstrom have the patience to push his idea as a regular driver without making false claims to qualifications he does not in fact possess? I must reiterate that I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with his amateur traffic engineering endeavours...if he would have clearly labeled them as such.

but he is calling himself an engineer to leverage social credibility that attaches to that professional term. I can share my legal opinions with you all day but no matter how well-formed those opinions are it doesn't alter the fact that I am not qualified to practice law, so the only person I could legally represent in court in myself. It would be dishonest of me to label myself as a lawyer, because people who didn't know any better would easily believe me and might create all sorts of problems for themselves by relying on that false belief.

What's going on here is that you heard a sympathetic story about something you think you understand well - who doesn't understand traffic lights, they are so familiar - with an underdog pitted against the image of a large unresponsive bureaucracy. And that is the point at which pany people in this thread have stopped thinking. Look across the thread, there are even people insisting that Jarlstrom is in fact a licensed engineer, repeatedly, based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever! People are literally inventing facts to uphold their preferred version of the story.

I am a bit depressed to see how easily people are taken in, and abandon reason in favor of their emotional reaction to a piece of obscure public policy. I have no opinion on the right length of traffic light periods (because I don't drive, thank heavens), and I would have no objection to people evaluating Jarlstrom's proposal and adopting it worldwide. But he chose to go about advancing his proposal in a way that he knew would cause problems, and now he is claiming to be a victim after doing something that he knew in advance would create such a problem.

His legal case will go nowhere because he chose to antagonize the very people who were best-positioned to assist him, for no other reason than to inflate his own ego. It would be wise to ask yourself why the story excluded so many important details about the sequence of events, and perhaps to reread pg's famous Submarine essay: http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The final court document does not seem to conform to your argument. Section 13 for example, does conform to your points. It states that "By purporting to be able to perform engineering services or work, Jarlstrom engaged in the practice of engineering...". However, section 14 is very different. It does not rely on his use of the title of engineer. Instead it states "By reviewing, critiquing, and altering an engineere…

For the last time, these are not separate issues and treating them as such is erroneous. Section 13 establishes the context in which the facts in section 14 were evaluated. I'm exhausted trying to explain this and frankly annoyed that I've wasted most of my afternoon trying to provide legal insight to people who refuse to listen to reason that contradicts their preconceptions. WHY do you think section 14 should be in…

While I understand your exhaustion, I wonder why they aren't suing companies providing certifications with 'Engineer' in the title. Say, Cisco Certified Engineer, MCSE, etc. It would seem that it would be a far more egregious violation to offer to certify someone as an engineer. Do they not go after the companies claiming to provide these resources as a service? I'm just wondering why it seems so selectively enforced.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an expert in Barry Schwartz but I think you're​ just making his argument stronger. Focusing on the usage of the term "engineer" when what was in discussion was the traffic lights, which was much important, shows such a shortsightness. Of course, everybody was just doing their job, just following the rules.

You are being played. Jarlstrom was informed that he wasn't entitled to hold himself out as an engineer and agreed not to do so. The reasons not to do that are valid, for the simple reason that it pretends to a level of expertise he does not have, when trying to influence how public infrastructure is run. I have said many times that Jarlstrom could simply have pitched his idea without claiming to be an engineer. Why…

I couldn't care less if he's a licensed engineer or not, if he was calling himself one or not...

I do care whether the traffic lights need fixing, what kind of fixing, if my local traffic lights suffer from the same issue and how it was troubleshooted.

All the rest of this discussion is just wasting everybody's time. And it is only happening because someone didn't have the good judgment to not fine someone who was obviously interested in the collective well being (initially motivated by personal reasons? who cares?).

All rules followed to the letter and society is losing.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the last time, these are not separate issues and treating them as such is erroneous. Section 13 establishes the context in which the facts in section 14 were evaluated. I'm exhausted trying to explain this and frankly annoyed that I've wasted most of my afternoon trying to provide legal insight to people who refuse to listen to reason that contradicts their preconceptions. WHY do you think section 14 should be in…

While I understand your exhaustion, I wonder why they aren't suing companies providing certifications with 'Engineer' in the title. Say, Cisco Certified Engineer, MCSE, etc. It would seem that it would be a far more egregious violation to offer to certify someone as an engineer. Do they not go after the companies claiming to provide these resources as a service? I'm just wondering why it seems so selectively enforced…

> While I understand your exhaustion, I wonder why they aren't suing companies providing certifications with 'Engineer' in the title.

...

quoting from a comment above from someone who is on the same side of the argument as you are.

"By reviewing, critiquing, and altering an engineered ITE formula, and submitting the critique and calculations for his modified version of the ITE formula to members of the public for consideration and modification of Beaverton, Oregon's and "worldwide" traffic signals"

Seriously. what. the. fuck. is wrong with you.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#229
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are writing a letter that purports to be written by a lawyer; you are pretending to be a lawyer that happens to have a different name than your actual name. That is both pretending to be a lawyer, and pretending other false things. Consider if you change the communication medium from written to oral: if walk up to someone and claim a different name than is actually yours, claim to be a lawyer representing someone…

I still don't see the argument, because I don't see where writing the letter translates to me claiming anything. Like, imagine that I wrote the letter as a text that would appear in a novel. And then someone else, reading my book, copy-and-pasted that text into an email and sent it to someone. I'm quite certain I'm not claiming to be a lawyer at that point (although the person who copied the text might now be, I gues…

> I still don't see the argument, because I don't see where writing the letter translates to me claiming anything

The letter is a written statement which (whatever else.you may claim in it) is, un fact, from you, asserting various facts, including that the writer of letter is a lawyer.

The claims in the letter are made by the actual author of the letter, not the (potentially fictions) person that they are claiming to be when they wrote it.

> When does a text change from fiction into a claim about reality

When it is presented either with intent that it will be taken as a claim about reality, or when a reasonable person would see it that way. What you write in a novel is an overt work of fiction that no reasonable person, in context, will, in the general case (barring special circumstances), see as a claim of fact. If someone else copies part of it out of context and presents it differently, thats a different story, but has nothing to do with you.

When you send something that you have written to someone with the intent that they view it as what it purports to be on its face, than any knowing falsehoods in it are knowing false claims made by you, the actual person who composed and sent the communication with the intent to deceive.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be asserting the government is the only institution wholely capable of, is effective at, or even interested in verifying a person's credentials.

You seem to projecting some of your political stereotypes onto me. The Board in question is in fact semi-autonomous and self-funding and has been for nearly 20 years. Insofar as government is a provider of public goods in the form of infrastructure I would certainly say that it has a legitimate interest in maintaining standards so as to avoid wasting public money.

Are they really self funded if the fees they demand are codified into law instead of voluntary? I guess the IRS is also self-funded.
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