Live data from Hacker News

Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

tofugu.com

31–40 of 47 posts

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#31
The part about amae is a bit off. I would go a step further than translating it just as "to wish to be loved." That's still normal even in western culture. Amae is closer to "nagging to be pet over the head while doing a cute face" or "whining" and "talking in a high pitch voice on purpose to sound cute so that you can get what you want".

"Amaeruna!" is heard often and for good reason. It means stop acting like a child and grow the F up. There is also "Amaesugi" (too much) and "Amaenbou" (someone who does too much) which are not positive terms. Then there is "Mazakon" which is short for mother complex. It's an insult, not a compliment, and it's directed towards male adults.

So you see, Japanese are both aware and critical of their amae tendencies.

> this amae… it's what keeps Japanese society together. It's the root cause of the successes you see in the Japanese education system.

Nah. I would stop at discipline, order, and obedience. Amae is still very personal, and is not any glue that builds businesses or communities, let alone the culture. Where it is seen exported the most is in Anime culture, not Sony or Toyota or Uniqlo or Rakuten.

Also, the part about "rat babies with a strong attachment to their mothers" can also be interpreted as "rat mothers with a strong attachment to their babies". Amae is not the opposite of neglect, nor a cure for it. The word for a parent's apparent over-attachment is "Oyabaka". You don't want to be too much of that either.

I was raised by a single mother. I had a lot of alone time, which I enjoyed very much. But I was never neglected. When I was little, I was an amaenbou. But I did well in school because I had good studying habits, and my mother paid attention to how I did and how I did it. I had a stress free childhood, did well in school, and did not need amae to counteract my stress. None of my friends were stressed out either. Being a kid in Japan is fun. I'd say junior high that's the worst with Ijime at it's peak.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#32
post #24
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>IQ is a proxy for lots of other things. [...] Early childhood engagement is incredibly important. Yes I agree that's very true but it's not relevant to the author's specific paragraph I was highlighting. Your particular statement can be true while simultaneously , Koichi's paragraph is false. This doesn't have to be some larger debate about nature-vs-nurture. Instead, I'm pointing out an example of reading a paragra…

It's not that simple. > Most people think that IQ, the ability to memorize, etc., are the key metrics for determining the future of a child. In Japan this is definitely true. It's what most people think, as dictated by what is common sense. All the while, the mother with the tensai (genius) child will have instilled good studying habits, focus, prep, etc, and still believe her child is just smart for having good grad…

>In Japan this is definitely true.

To be clear, I included that 1st sentence there for context so the subsequent sentences make sense. Same contextual reason for sentence #4. Yes, Japanese people may think that and yes, non-cognitive skill includes persistence, etc.

>, but taking an entire paragraph

When I'm saying "paragraph" may be false, I'm talking about sentences #2 and #3 and not #1 and #4.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#33

'The word amae comes from the word amaeru, which, according to Japanese psychoanalyst Takeo Doi (he's the guy who basically made this term a thing), can be defined as "to wish to be loved." On top of this, it has connotations of a need for dependency and a request for indulgence of one's perceived needs. This amae type of relationship is the ideal for all close relationships in Japan. It starts with child and mother,…

lol do you call any attempt at a useful psychology "Freudian psychobabble"

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#34
post #29

> Compare that to boys who are supposed to be raised as more independent and tough. Is it possible that the way we raise boys versus girls is what's causing more boys to have trouble paying attention? Self control, willpower, and the ability to pay attention are all non-cognitive skills. If "attachment" and "dependency" are the things that develop a child's non-cognitive skills… could this be why more boys have ADHD…

> I can't remember a time in a Canadian public school where I was asked to do something useful for somebody. I think more of that would have helped a lot in terms of motivation. I mean we had mandatory volunteer hours? But in general, yes, school is just a day-care and nothing more.

>mandatory volunteer

Is it volunteering if it's mandatory?

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#35
Hard to reconcile this with the existence of the kyouiku mama, the education mother. I also wonder if this also isn't ignoring all the students who don't do cram schools and who aren't salarymen capable, which is a lot of japan. Sometimes there's too much focus on the elite.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#36
post #12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IQ is a proxy for lots of other things. There have been twin studies where reading skills, including early childhood reading skills accounted for a lot of perceived IQ differences. Early childhood engagement is incredibly important. We attribute many things to genetics that are outgrowths of a child's home environment. Parents stuck in cycles of inattentive or abusive family situations, over-reliance on shitty daycar…

>IQ is a proxy for lots of other things. [...] Early childhood engagement is incredibly important. Yes I agree that's very true but it's not relevant to the author's specific paragraph I was highlighting. Your particular statement can be true while simultaneously , Koichi's paragraph is false. This doesn't have to be some larger debate about nature-vs-nurture. Instead, I'm pointing out an example of reading a paragra…

I think that you're missing my point. Those "non cognitive" skills tend to be correlated with high cognitive ability. But they aren't exclusive to it.

Frankly it depends on your definition of success. In an extreme example, we had a young man with Down's syndrome who cleaned our office and did some maintenance a few years ago. He demonstrated all of those non-cognitive characteristics, lived independently and seemed to be happy. I would argue that despite a fundamental deficit in cognitive ability and a corresponding low IQ, he was a successful adult.

In the context of a conversation about Japan, where success is getting into a school and becoming a salaryman, those non-cognitive skills (which were broader than just the much-hyped "grit") are meaningful once you hit some average threshold of brainpower.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#37
post #34
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't remember a time in a Canadian public school where I was asked to do something useful for somebody. I think more of that would have helped a lot in terms of motivation. I mean we had mandatory volunteer hours? But in general, yes, school is just a day-care and nothing more.

>mandatory volunteer Is it volunteering if it's mandatory?

Where you choose to help out is up to you?

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#38
post #34
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't remember a time in a Canadian public school where I was asked to do something useful for somebody. I think more of that would have helped a lot in terms of motivation. I mean we had mandatory volunteer hours? But in general, yes, school is just a day-care and nothing more.

>mandatory volunteer Is it volunteering if it's mandatory?

Yeah, it's oxymoronic. They should just call it duty or something, a euphemism is better than an oxymoron.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#40
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>IQ is a proxy for lots of other things. [...] Early childhood engagement is incredibly important. Yes I agree that's very true but it's not relevant to the author's specific paragraph I was highlighting. Your particular statement can be true while simultaneously , Koichi's paragraph is false. This doesn't have to be some larger debate about nature-vs-nurture. Instead, I'm pointing out an example of reading a paragra…

I think that you're missing my point. Those "non cognitive" skills tend to be correlated with high cognitive ability. But they aren't exclusive to it. Frankly it depends on your definition of success. In an extreme example, we had a young man with Down's syndrome who cleaned our office and did some maintenance a few years ago. He demonstrated all of those non-cognitive characteristics, lived independently and seemed…

Salarymen make up a small portion of the Japanese workforce... much smaller than blue collar workers, part-time workers etc. This may be seen as THE path to success by some, but not everyone, especially in rural areas and among younger cohorts.
Post reply on HN