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Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

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Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#81

Post by rmxt »

JBReefer wrote: post #71
anigbrowl wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they don't. He's perfectly at liberty to do so, but not to assert professional standing which he lacks in order to make it seem more convincing. Did you read the Board's complaint? At first the asked the Board to investigate the city even though the Board had no jurisdiction to do so. they advised him of this and also cautioned him not to advertise himself as an engineer, in accordance with Oregon's code. He agre…

Look, you're not wrong. But you have to remember that none of that matters, because I can put the following notice out, and any government prohibition of such is a big payday for me: "I, JB Reefer, am God, command you to stop driving. I am the king of all engineers, president of space, etc etc etc" and it doesn't matter. You really do get to say whatever the fuck you want in this country, as long as it doesn't cause…

Not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but the Constitution is but one piece of law in the US. There's a litany of state legislation (and I presume federal, as well) that regulate the use of job titles (e.g., doctor, engineer, lawyer, dentist, etc.). Most of them still on the books, and most of them attempting to nip the "direct harm to someone else" in the bud. That is what this article sort of willfully ignores: sure, this guy didn't exactly go out of of his way to harm people, but others have and do for their financial (or otherwise) benefit. [1]

I doubt that these laws are going away any time soon. Perhaps modified as more and more influential people see "programming" as "engineering", but doubtful that they'll go away for things like civil/mechanical/electrical infrastructure.

[1] http://laist.com/2016/01/30/fake_civil_engineers_may_have_bu...

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#82

Post by Jtsummers »

blackguardx wrote: post #44
glibgil wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Computer engineer is something else. It is like an electrical engineer for computing

No, a computer engineering program typically offers a blended course of software and hardware. It is typically half way between computer science and electrical engineering. That being said, it all depends on the university. At some universities, you can pretty much take all comp sci classes as a computer engineering major. The major difference is that it is a "real engineering" degree in that it requires the engineer…

I cannot to speak to all schools, but at Georgia Tech Computer Engineering was (circa 2005) EE with 3 CS courses, and instead of taking courses like power engineering the focus was on courses related to computer hardware design or applications.

Looking at it now, it seems they've dropped that 3 CS course requirement (at the time it was the same first 3 courses as CS majors) and replaced it with 1 required CS course: Computing for Engineers. Everything else, required, is ECE (electrical and computer engineering) with options to satisfy some major electives via CS courses (up to 7 by the hours, but no specific sequence, required to be 3xxx or above meaning a student would need to take at least 2 or 3, depending on present CS curriculum, to even qualify for them with prerequisites).

I picked this one as it seems like the quintessential CMPE program from what I've seen, and it's one of the top engineering schools in the US so it ends up influencing or setting the standard by which other US schools do things. And specifically, it's not halfway. It's often (from a perusal of other schools I'm familiar with) heavily biased towards the hardware side (by requirements, electives of course permit the student some leeway for individual breadth).

EDIT: I did misread the current GT requirements, seems they moved 2 of the programming courses into the ECE department and out of CS.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#83

Post by derefr »

bmh_ca wrote: post #16
bgun wrote: post #3

Honest curiosity: is it fraud (in the US) to claim that you are a member of a profession that you are not? (I am not saying that is what he intended to do here). For example, if someone owes me money, is it illegal for me to send them a letter, in which I purport to be a lawyer?

There are several facts that affect whether the consequence of claiming to have a professional qualification is regulatory or criminal (being two branches of "illegal"), including (but not limited to), in no particular order: 1. Who you send it to 2. The purpose of the communication 3. The consequences of the communication 4. Whether it is inter- or intra-state 5. What profession it is There are other questions that…

A more interesting question, to me: would it be more or less dangerous to create a fictional person, who "is" a lawyer—or a fictional LLP, run by such a person†—and then send a letter written "as" them, representing you?

By sending such a letter, I'm not claiming to be a lawyer, right? But then, what am I doing?

† The law was at least smart enough here to require a partnership structure. Imagine if your fictional lawyer could be "employed by" a real shell corporation!

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#84

Post by djoldman »

JBReefer wrote: post #71
anigbrowl wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they don't. He's perfectly at liberty to do so, but not to assert professional standing which he lacks in order to make it seem more convincing. Did you read the Board's complaint? At first the asked the Board to investigate the city even though the Board had no jurisdiction to do so. they advised him of this and also cautioned him not to advertise himself as an engineer, in accordance with Oregon's code. He agre…

Look, you're not wrong. But you have to remember that none of that matters, because I can put the following notice out, and any government prohibition of such is a big payday for me: "I, JB Reefer, am God, command you to stop driving. I am the king of all engineers, president of space, etc etc etc" and it doesn't matter. You really do get to say whatever the fuck you want in this country, as long as it doesn't cause…

Well, you can't yell fire in a movie theater unless there's a fire[0]. You can't assert that you are a doctor(lawyer) while giving medical(law) advice. There are good reasons for these laws.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_the...

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#85

Post by cwills »

Shouldn't need a license to prove you're an engineer unless say perhaps you're running an engineering business, where people's lives can depend on your work - e.g building a bridge. If you have formal education in engineering, then I would think you can call yourself an engineer?

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#86

Post by anigbrowl »

dnautics wrote: post #69
anigbrowl wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It varies by state; in California the unauthorized practice of law is a crime. Perhaps predictably, the people complaining about this feel that it's a form of rent-seeking by incumbents, but none of them have bothered to consider the flip side of the equation which is that bad actors who falsely hold themselves out as licensed professionals can hurt would-be clients in two ways: by directly exploiting them for the co…

In this particular case, the defendant is licensed as an engineer.

An odd statement to make, considering that his defense was that he doesn't need to be licensed engineer to call himself an engineer.

Where is he licensed? Why is he not licensed in Oregon, despite having been timely notified, without penalty, of the requirement to do so if he wished to claim that title? Why did he agree to abide by this requirement then break his agreement within months?

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#88

Post by echion »

anigbrowl wrote: post #64
patorjk wrote: post #35

Everyone's talking about the title issue, but it's amazing that the Oregon board doesn't believe he should be able to publish or present his ideas. You can go on and on about what it means to be a certain title, but the man should be able to put forth his work and ideas.

But they don't. He's perfectly at liberty to do so, but not to assert professional standing which he lacks in order to make it seem more convincing. Did you read the Board's complaint? At first the asked the Board to investigate the city even though the Board had no jurisdiction to do so. they advised him of this and also cautioned him not to advertise himself as an engineer, in accordance with Oregon's code. He agre…

> He's perfectly at liberty to [share the information]

No, he's not according to the violations cited in Final Order, page 6, section heading #14; in particular:

   By reviewing, critiquing, and altering an engineered ITE formula, and submitting the critique and calculations [...] to members of the public for consideration and modification of Beaverton, Oregon's and worldwide traffic signals, which signals are public equipment, processes and works, Jarlstrom applied special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to such creative work as investigation, evaluation, and design in connection with public equipment, processes, and works. Jarlstrom thereby engaged in the practice of engineering under ORS 672.005(1)(b).
...and summarizing:

   By engaging the practice of engineering [...] without registration, Jarlstrom violated [laws]. [...] By again providing the public with his traffic engineering calculations for the modification of Beaverton's traffic signal timing, Jarlstrom again engaged in the practice of engineering and, specifically, the practice of traffic engineering. He thereby violated [laws] on a third occasion.  By providing his publicly released traffic engineering calculations to the sheriff of the 20 county where he advised changes in traffic signals, Jarlstrom again purported to be authorized to engage in, and did engage in, the practice of engineering. He, therefore, violated [laws] on third and fourth occasions.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#89

Post by takk309 »

The issue that the Board has is that he claimed to be an engineer in a public forum. The Boards interpretation of "engineer" in this context was to mean Traffic Engineer.

The Board warned Järlström that he was in violation of the Law and asked him to stop claiming to be an engineer, to which he agreed. It was later, when he continued to claim to be an engineer that legal action was taken.

It is also of note, and stated in the Board's documentation of the case, that Sweden has no legal standards for engineers of any kind.

Finally, full disclosure, I am a registered and licensed traffic engineer.

[edit] grammar

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#90

Post by notlob »

dnautics wrote: post #69
anigbrowl wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It varies by state; in California the unauthorized practice of law is a crime. Perhaps predictably, the people complaining about this feel that it's a form of rent-seeking by incumbents, but none of them have bothered to consider the flip side of the equation which is that bad actors who falsely hold themselves out as licensed professionals can hurt would-be clients in two ways: by directly exploiting them for the co…

In this particular case, the defendant is licensed as an engineer.

> In this particular case, the defendant is licensed as an engineer.

The first linked document in the article states that the defendant is not licensed by any state.

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