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Video Games Are Better Without Stories

theatlantic.com

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Re: Video Games Are Better Without Stories

#11

Post by cholantesh »

actuallyalys wrote: post #10
cholantesh wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's pretty dishonest. The only serious modern game in the mix appears to be Bioshock, and it seems that the author didn't quite understand what Levine & Co were trying to convey about autonomy and agency with that work.

Why isn't Gone Home a serious game? It's a commercial success that was well-reviewed by critics and fans. It's even made by some of the same people as Bioshock.

Poor choice of words on my part; I mean to say that Gone Home, Dear Esther, Stanley Parable (which I feel is the best in this subgenre), etc., are not especially representative of video game narrative choices at large.

Re: Video Games Are Better Without Stories

#12

Post by rfz »

Latty wrote: post #5

I feel like the author had a point they were trying to make in this article, but it ended up being a complete mess that just comes across as stupid. This idea that games are just cheaply emulating hollywood is just wrong. Games can and do tell stories that just don't work in film or books, and those stories are valuable. Games can use interactivity to make a story more personal and give the player investment and owne…

> I feel like the author had a point they were trying to make in this article, but it ended up being a complete mess that just comes across as stupid.

Agreed. Also using Doom and Bioshock in what seemed to be the same comparison, is pretty mindblowing.

Re: Video Games Are Better Without Stories

#13

Post by actuallyalys »

cholantesh wrote: post #11
actuallyalys wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn't Gone Home a serious game? It's a commercial success that was well-reviewed by critics and fans. It's even made by some of the same people as Bioshock.

Poor choice of words on my part; I mean to say that Gone Home, Dear Esther, Stanley Parable (which I feel is the best in this subgenre), etc., are not especially representative of video game narrative choices at large.

Thanks for clarifying! I agree that this article could have done a better job of distinguishing between the subgenre and games that use narrative more minimally.

Re: Video Games Are Better Without Stories

#14

Post by namlem »

I think that's often true of more traditional attempts at storytelling in games. I would say that the emergent stories in games like Civilization or Dwarf Fortress are more compelling that the written stories in most games. However, there are some games that really do a great job of leveraging the interactive medium for telling a story. Undertale is one that comes to mind. Of course, actually making a game like that is far more difficult and time consuming, since you're essentially writing a huge branching story where each path the player can take is still cohesive and makes sense.

Re: Video Games Are Better Without Stories

#16

Post by anon1253 »

Being a huge fan of the genre of "interactive narratives", I have to disagree. Games like Gone Home, Life is Strange, Mass Effect, Skyrim, Fallout, Deus Ex, and others have had a profound impact on me. The author doesn't seem to make a compelling point why they would be better as books or movies. I haven't really been able to derive a more coherent argument from the article than "they're worse because they're worse, so they should not be games". I think that is a bit harsh on the incredible achievements of the games that painstakingly build an interactive narrative on a medium that is both technically and artistically extremely challenging. Take Mass Effect for example, to me the whole franchise has been one of the most successful science-fiction stories ever. It rivals Star Trek, Star War, and The Expanse. Especially since Mass Effect came out during a period where Hollywood had pretty much given up on the genre as a whole. Mass Effect constructs this beautifully detailed and coherent universe set in a future where mankind discovers advanced technology from an ancient race. This propels mankind into a new era of exploration, conflict and intrigue. Te reason why Mass Effect "works for me", besides the "world building", is that you have the ability to construct a secondary narrative on top of the one presented by the game itself. You are allowed, and encouraged, to make decisions and reflect upon them. While it's all arguably superficial and closed-world, the moment you immerse yourself /in the character/ it offers something very few books and movies can: the ability to guide the story, and become a "person" in a complex world. Then again, I'm biased…but so is that author it seems.

Re: Video Games Are Better Without Stories

#17

Post by mixedCase »

actuallyalys wrote: post #9
mixedCase wrote: post #4

I'd love to know what games the author has played in the last decade. Gone Home was nearly universally hated outside of media outlets, and is hardly a game in the first place; so it's interesting he brings it up as a shining example.

Gone Home was far from universally hated. Certainly, there's a vocal crowd of people who hated it, but it has a 7/10 on Steam and a 4.5/5 rating on Itch.

It does have a 5.4 user score on Metacritic, and the reviews marked as "most helpful" on Steam are mostly negative. I will say though that it surprises me the game is not rated lower on Steam given the Metacritic score. Probably related to the fact the game released before the introduction of Steam reviews, and most people unhappy with it never ended up leaving a review there.

Itch is predominantly a platform the indie dev scene and game journalists use, and that was the crowd that liked it.

From the other popular "walking simulator" games, the Stanley Parade seems to be the most well-received one.

Re: Video Games Are Better Without Stories

#18

Post by cableshaft »

anon1253 wrote: post #16

Being a huge fan of the genre of "interactive narratives", I have to disagree. Games like Gone Home, Life is Strange, Mass Effect, Skyrim, Fallout, Deus Ex, and others have had a profound impact on me. The author doesn't seem to make a compelling point why they would be better as books or movies. I haven't really been able to derive a more coherent argument from the article than "they're worse because they're worse,…

I'm a game designer and a hobbyist writer, and I traditionally have had a terrible time of putting stories into my designs...but yeah, there's some really fun interactive narrative / rpg games out there and I don't think the author has bothered to give them a try (he's only focused on the recent 'walking sim' genre in the article).

Phoenix Wright, Danganronpa, Persona 4 and 5, Life is Strange... all really great, and that's just what I've played in the last year. I've already got Nier Automata on deck for whenever I finish Persona 5.

I also tried playing Steins;Gate this year, one of the more influential graphic novel games, but I'm having a harder time getting into that one (I already saw a good chunk of the anime, so the game feels like a major downgrade visually).

The multiple path/ending thing is something books and films have never done terribly well. Clue is the most effective and successful movie that has attempted multiple endings, and even that could only provide 3 ~5 minute endings to an otherwise static (but really fun) movie.

Meanwhile quite a bit changed in my playthrough of Life is Strange based on my choices (although still not quite as much as I would have liked, certain plot points couldn't be altered), and I got 3 different endings in Persona 4 Golden, with each of the endings leaving some of the mysteries left unanswered (I haven't gotten the 'true' ending yet).

Re: Video Games Are Better Without Stories

#19

Post by mcphage »

cableshaft wrote: post #18
anon1253 wrote: post #16

Being a huge fan of the genre of "interactive narratives", I have to disagree. Games like Gone Home, Life is Strange, Mass Effect, Skyrim, Fallout, Deus Ex, and others have had a profound impact on me. The author doesn't seem to make a compelling point why they would be better as books or movies. I haven't really been able to derive a more coherent argument from the article than "they're worse because they're worse,…

I'm a game designer and a hobbyist writer, and I traditionally have had a terrible time of putting stories into my designs...but yeah, there's some really fun interactive narrative / rpg games out there and I don't think the author has bothered to give them a try (he's only focused on the recent 'walking sim' genre in the article). Phoenix Wright, Danganronpa, Persona 4 and 5, Life is Strange... all really great, and…

> I don't think the author has bothered to give them a try

The author is Ian Bogost, a veteran game designer, developer, and and critic. Check out his biography: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Bogost#Bibliography

Re: Video Games Are Better Without Stories

#20

Post by mcphage »

mixedCase wrote: post #17
actuallyalys wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gone Home was far from universally hated. Certainly, there's a vocal crowd of people who hated it, but it has a 7/10 on Steam and a 4.5/5 rating on Itch.

It does have a 5.4 user score on Metacritic, and the reviews marked as "most helpful" on Steam are mostly negative. I will say though that it surprises me the game is not rated lower on Steam given the Metacritic score. Probably related to the fact the game released before the introduction of Steam reviews, and most people unhappy with it never ended up leaving a review there. Itch is predominantly a platform the ind…

> It does have a 5.4 user score on Metacritic

User scores on sites like Metacritic are completely useless in understanding how popular a game is or isn't.

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