Live data from Hacker News

Thunder Run to Seoul: Assessing North Korea’s War Plan

realcleardefense.com

81–90 of 124 posts

Re: Thunder Run to Seoul: Assessing North Korea’s War Plan

#81
post #15

The key thing here is the geography. Seoul is only 20 miles from the border with North Korea. It's within artillery range, and North Korea has the necessary artillery. If there's a war, Seoul gets clobbered in the first minutes. Few countries have their capital that close to a hostile border. Syria does. Look where Damascus is.

I think the key thing is history. The UK developed the nuclear bomb with no help from the USA. As a consequence the UK was not part of the Marshall Plan and as well as enduring a 'rebuild from nothing' there was also the phenomenal cost of Windscale and all of the rest of the infrastructure, a cost borne without the industrial base the USA had - ruins vs. vast and intact. The Manhattan Project was a similar cost to t…

The UK received quite a lot of Marshall Plan money. Nearly $3.2b of it, in fact.

Re: Thunder Run to Seoul: Assessing North Korea’s War Plan

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a subjective value call. It depends on how many North Koreans are being brutalized/dying right now. We don't have that number, but it's likely that tens of thousands of the hundreds of thousands of political prisoners will die of starvation or execution within a few years. So unspeakable carnage is already the default state, and we already have a situation here that is comparable to Khmer Rouge or Stalinist Ru…

I don't want to minimize the North Korean regime, but you're talking about some of the world's largest armies engaged in a total war to the death in an area half the size of California with twice the population. You're talking about rocket artillery bombardment of a city of 30 million people, major tank warfare in population centers, and a serious risk of the use of nuclear weapons. This is warfare at a scale we have…

Are you trying to argue that there is a moral difference between action and inaction, or just a political difference? It's certainly something that historic philosophers have spent a lot of time discussing, but that doesn't mean their moral confusion needs to be taken seriously.

Re: Thunder Run to Seoul: Assessing North Korea’s War Plan

#83

The assessment predicts: "Tens or hundreds of thousands could become casualties" ... in the event of an all-out DRPK/(US+ROK) conflict. One factor to consider here is what happens if no conflict occurs? In that case, there are ... still likely tens of thousands of civilian deaths happening as the status quo in North Korean labor camps[1]. Allowing the regime to continue to exist also has a major cost in human lives.…

"One factor to consider here is what happens if no conflict occurs?"

Another angle is the threat North Korea wields is not static. 20 years ago we were worried "What if NK starts shelling Seoul?" Now we're worried "What if NK nukes Seoul or maybe Japan?" We're either at or just a year or two away from "What if NK nukes Hawaii?" with rapid progress towards "What if NK nukes the United States?" Give it another twenty years and it'll be "What if NK launches all of its couple hundred nukes at once?" and "What if NK deploys its bioweapons?" or even "What if NK simply accidentally mishandles its bioweapons and something it is developing gets out into the world?"

I'm not advocating for any particular solution here, not least of which is because at least at the moment I haven't got any skin in this game... at least, for another year or two, until NK can indeed reach me with a nuke-tipped missile, and even then, the odds they'd pick where I live is very, very low.[1] I don't know exactly how to analyze this case in game theory. But I at least recognize there is an element of this setup where even though at any given moment the locally rational thing to do is not to attack or provoke North Korea, the globally rational thing to do is probably not to keep choosing that choice indefinitely. One way or another, eventually North Korea is going to have to offer the international community another choice, whether it likes it or not.

(My personal suspicion is that China really is moving to constrain them and we see a good chance of perhaps-surprising cooperation, even if a Kabuki show is put on about the details, because it was all fun and games for China when what NK has was artillery pointed at a foreign city they didn't much care about, or had some scary weapons pointed at them. Even a couple of small nukes that can't reach China's really important assets might not concern them. But unless North Korea's posture has 100% been a carefully calculated act by otherwise ruthlessly logical individuals, which I'd suggest is not where the evidence points us, an actual nuclear power North Korea that has dozens of missiles that can reach anywhere in the world becomes a true threat to China as well, not only directly, but in that it might give other regional powers Ideas about how to "more effectively" leverage their nuclear arsenals to extract concessions from China, which I'd expect NK to immediately move to do as their only refuge at this point would be in audacity. As the NK threat continues to ramp up they become a threat to even more actors. Even for the US, the NK has been more "thorn in our side" than actual threat.)

[1]: Though that probably doesn't apply to all readers here. If I were North Korea and I was looking for ways to hurt the US, Washington DC would be my target #1... but Silicon Valley would be on my very, very short list, as not only hurting the US financially, but also symbolically. Personally I think I'd put Hollywood above it, then maybe New York, but Silicon Valley makes a pretty plausible 4th, as a way of striking the industry where the US is arguably most clearly leading the world in one relatively small place. So, you know, this discussion is IMHO getting rapidly less theoretical than some of us may like.

Re: Thunder Run to Seoul: Assessing North Korea’s War Plan

#84
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of the major reasons no one does anything about it, ignoring the buffer China enjoys from the US (via proxy), is the humanitarian crisis from the entire NK population after the war is over. Who is going to help them? China? SK?

South Korea already has plans in place for that. I can't find the article at the moment, but they feel super bad for and about North Korea and really want to help if they could

Everything I've read about a postwar reconstruction of North Korea says that the costs would be much, much greater than the integration of East and West Germany.

Not only assuming that a hot war would have serious consequences to the economy of South Korea.

Re: Thunder Run to Seoul: Assessing North Korea’s War Plan

#85
North Korea, like the Sow jet Union, has fought a war that the US can not imagine. They fought a war in which they lost 10% of the population. If the US would lose 32 Million in a war maybe the US would lose the taste for war too.

Not going to judge their outdated equipment. But they will fight. This a not Arabic troops from tribal societies who will run as soon as they are given the chance. In fact, North Korea CAN NOT lose this war. They have not lost the last one, they won't lose the next. North Korea is too important for both, China and Russia as a buffer country. Both countries have moved a lot of troops recently near North Korea. If there is a conflict we may seem a regime change (supported but Russia and China). What we are not gong to see is a US occupied united Korea.

One risk with Trumps pressure is they it works two ways. North Korea could reasonably assume that they will loose most equipment if the US attacks. So why not attack first? Use it or lose it. The safest place for a rocket or artillery shell is still in the air....

Re: Thunder Run to Seoul: Assessing North Korea’s War Plan

#86
post #48

I found this article to be an interesting read on what a war with NK might look like http://defconwarningsystem.com/2017/03/25/what-a-korean-war-... Essentially NK would use every weapon they can and China would be the only winner.

Perhaps the US might not act as NK regime tries to overrun SK. This would force China and Russsia to support SK to prevent unificAtion. The economic and political consequences of a unified Korea are contrary to its neighboors interests, but I don't think, despite widespread perception, the US need intervene.

Re: Thunder Run to Seoul: Assessing North Korea’s War Plan

#87
post #26

local breakthroughs on the major routes towards Seoul—their first operational objective. Playing devil's advocate: How do we know Seoul is the operational objective? It seems obvious (capital city located near the border) but what if DPRK went for something not so obvious? i.e. "Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected" (classic Sun/Mao approach) Also, what if Pyongyang tries to draw in a…

Russia has a short border with North Korea (http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=11/42.3129/130.6686 ). They've been moving forces there, in case something happens and people try to flee into Russia. I don't think they are an especially willing ally.

Re: Thunder Run to Seoul: Assessing North Korea’s War Plan

#89
post #85

North Korea, like the Sow jet Union, has fought a war that the US can not imagine. They fought a war in which they lost 10% of the population. If the US would lose 32 Million in a war maybe the US would lose the taste for war too. Not going to judge their outdated equipment. But they will fight. This a not Arabic troops from tribal societies who will run as soon as they are given the chance. In fact, North Korea CAN…

North Korea DID lose the war in 1950, in a way. After Incheon Landing, the North Korean army never really recovered. The majority of fighting power for north side was from Chinese army.

The reason UN Forces got pushed back and couldn't advance was because of the human wave attacks from Chinese army.

Re: Thunder Run to Seoul: Assessing North Korea’s War Plan

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The US is a superpower, but that doesn't mean that other nation-states exist because we deign to suffer their existence—that's a very colonialist way of looking at the world. This is a question of international consensus, not US will. Under the definition of sovereignty agreed upon by the international community, DPRK has forfeited its' right to sovereignty by repeated human rights abuses, WMD development, and aggre…

It is Trump making the decision now, not the international community. I'll also remind you, that the only country in the entire world that has extensively used WMDs is the US. The US has used Nukes (WWII), and is also responsible for the most extensive use of chemical weapons of any county (Vietnam). NK has never used a WMD.

"It is Trump making the decision now, not the international community."

It may not be "the international community", but it is certainly not just Trump. South Korea, China, and lately Japan all have an interest and are actively attempting to steer results.

I mean, I'd bet if you consult your model of Trump that you think is acting it will tell you that being a crazy madman unconstrained by rationality or morality he unilaterally nuked Pyongyang last month. That model applied consistently, instead of piecemeal whenever cynically convenient, is clearly not predictive. (If that is not your personal model, timthelion, I am sure this message reaches many people for whom that is their unexamined model, so still not a waste.)

Post reply on HN