Earlier quoted context omitted.
The CFAA is absurdly broadly worded, so much so that it's extremely easy to wield against people accused of violating it. The DoJ uses it as their hammer, if they targeted everyone who violated it the jails would be overflowing.
It would be nice if they'd target someone -- like Uber -- who really deserves to be punished for it.
Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers
211–220 of 228 posts
Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
>It is interesting to note that, were they applied to physical private property, most of your arguments would clear the stealing of anything that is not bolted to the ground. This is exactly the flawed analogy that incumbents use to keep anti-competitive legislation like the CFAA and extreme copyright regimes in place, but it doesn't work. >Well, our laws work like that for pretty much every other aspect of property…
> This is exactly the flawed analogy that incumbents use to keep anti-competitive legislation like the CFAA and extreme copyright regimes in place, but it doesn't work. These problems can all be discussed in the prism of restraining property rights for public benefit (e.g. restriction of copyright for quoting). In Uber's case, though, there is no public interest in restraining Lyft's rights. > They don't universally…
The public interest is in maintaining a fair and open market. You can't blind your competitors and expect to get beneficial competition.
IMO we need to be much more aggressive about this and err toward keeping the market accessible for new entrants v. keeping an ideologically-pure sanctum for corporate property rights. The powerful will always use try to use their influence to get the government enforcing rules that are to their benefit.
If you think it's absurd for Target to be able to issue a blanket ban on Walmart employees shopping in their stores in order to "protect their intellectual property", you should think this is absurd too. "But, Target could've sold information about their stores to Walmart! Walmart employees are stealing by going in there without their Walmart hats on!" Give me a break.
You're speaking in favor of treating intellectual property identical to real property. It doesn't work that way. Information can co-exist without diminishing or blocking anything, whereas occupation or usage of real property cannot.
Some IP rights are reasonable, but contrary to real property laws that merely codify the natural human behavior to protect and preserve physical property, IP contradicts the natural human impulse to spread information far and wide. "Information wants to be free" and all that. IP is a government-granted monopoly on information, and it's something we should be very wary about.
>None of these regulation relate to liability of potential thieves, but to public safety.
That's because no theft is occurring. Theft requires illegally taking something. Uber hasn't taken anything or caused any actual deprivation. The theory that they maybe COULD HAVE sold it to Uber is ridiculous. We can't protect everything based merely on its hypothetical, untested market value; the fact is that Lyft was giving this away.
>The nature of that deal is codified in the terms of service. While most terms of service may be seen unfair towards customers, in this case, 1) Uber is not a customer and 2) the aspects of the terms that were violated are hard to consider unfair.
I disagree, I think they're easy to consider unfair, and I think people would readily agree if the parties had swapped positions.
>Uber's action fits none of these legitimate uses, and is actually a good example of why CFAA was introduced in the first place.
The CFAA was introduced after a panic caused by the Matthew Broderick film War Games. "The internet" was not something that the public had even heard about, let alone had in their homes. It was intended to prevent hacking into military, industrial, and financial computer systems.
Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Why do people pay taxes, that are used to fund immoral actions? ... Typically, the answer is money. That seems like a stretch; people pay their taxes because they don't want to go to prison, not because of money. If anything, money would be an incentive not to pay your taxes, so it seems obvious that there's something stronger than money at play there.
Or, in not-libertarian-land, people pay taxes because they enjoy having access to public services such as police, fire departments, working roads, water, etc.
Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers
#214So, no one was really able to answer my question last thread. In fact, I mostly got snarky condescending replies. I've stopped caring about such things though, so hopefully good-faith questions are still welcome: What's wrong with Uber tracking Lyft drivers? What is wrong with using a competitor's API to get real-time tactical information about them? Not only did it not harm Lyft drivers, but it actually aided them:…
I'm gone out the house 10 hours a day, sleep 8 hours, and have very few actual chores. They would only need to cook me a lunch to take to work, and do a little light cleaning. They could use the free time to jump online and learn from resources they would've never had access to. I'd even help them by getting them access to some skills appropriate help. There entire life would be massively improved, and once they feel ready to move back to their homeland and make their own living, I wouldn't stop them.
Yet that isn't only illegal, if I tried to foster a child and treated them this way I would be considered a horrible human being. Weird, no?
The main answer to this is that allowing this, while it may seem reasonable in a single case by case basis, caused massive social problems (child slavery lite) that justifies forbidding me from making an offer that could save the life of some child. The second and third order effects are too bad. (Or maybe they aren't and it would actually be better overall to allow it. It would be an interesting discussion either way.)
Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
how are you supposed to compete if you can't see what your competitor is doing? Well, that's the issue, isn't it? I had your mindset going into this, but Uber is getting sued for exactly that, and public opinion is (apparently) strongly against the idea that you should use your competitor's API's at all. So how do you look objectively at this and conclude "Well, even though a popular company is now being sued for thi…
This sounds ultimately like a political question and not an ethical one. Meaning, public opinion needs to spar with private interests on numerous related matters in order to arrive at a conclusion, because no one person is going to be able to figure it out themselves. Until then the area is a frontier where you must tread carefully and keep your wits about you. What makes the US a good place for business is its very…
Many of those people probably would've preferred the horse kill that guy instead of just bump him a little. Half of them probably feel that he deserved it, and they were happy to see him get hit.
It's easy to feel like the court of programmer opinion is much more evolved and sophisticated, but as far as I can tell, we're cut from the same cloth.
I was hoping there were a way to navigate ethical issues from a personal standpoint. It would be helpful to have a template: "I'm going to do S, and I know it's right because X." "I'm going to do T, even though it might be wrong, because Y." "I'm going to do V, even though it's wrong, because Z."
Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
This sounds ultimately like a political question and not an ethical one. Meaning, public opinion needs to spar with private interests on numerous related matters in order to arrive at a conclusion, because no one person is going to be able to figure it out themselves. Until then the area is a frontier where you must tread carefully and keep your wits about you. What makes the US a good place for business is its very…
I wish I could agree, but I can't. The court of public opinion is fickle and monstrous. You don't have to go far to see examples: https://www.reddit.com/r/instant_regret/comments/67g6lj/moun... Many of those people probably would've preferred the horse kill that guy instead of just bump him a little. Half of them probably feel that he deserved it, and they were happy to see him get hit. It's easy to feel like the cou…
These decisions become ever-higher-stakes as responsibilities accrue. Is your loyalty to your employees and investors, whom you can pay more if you charge more, or your customers, who are looking to keep more of their "surplus" and may very well already have that money allocated to other needs? You can cast such dilemmas about most choices.
Anyway, religion is the framework that has been formulated to satisfy your very natural yearning for a moral standard or compass.
But even in religion, there is no hard deterministic path. Much like law, there are some baselines, but beyond that, the decision falls back into the individual's lap. That is why regular self-examination through prayer and introspection are core components of religion.
Good luck to you.
Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wish I could agree, but I can't. The court of public opinion is fickle and monstrous. You don't have to go far to see examples: https://www.reddit.com/r/instant_regret/comments/67g6lj/moun... Many of those people probably would've preferred the horse kill that guy instead of just bump him a little. Half of them probably feel that he deserved it, and they were happy to see him get hit. It's easy to feel like the cou…
The moral dilemmas of life are incontrovertible. Everyone must make cost-benefit decisions that don't have an absolute or clear answer; situations in which any of the options hold both moral virtues and moral hazards. These decisions become ever-higher-stakes as responsibilities accrue. Is your loyalty to your employees and investors, whom you can pay more if you charge more, or your customers, who are looking to kee…
Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
What boggles my mind is the notion that a potential HIPAA violation is some grand immorality. It's just information about somebody. It's nice to keep secret, but no great loss to society if it was made public.
Wow, you're a real piece of work.
What if you could opt in to healthcare that was 20% cheaper, but was only subject to contractual promises of medical privacy, not the HIPAA. Would you take the deal?
Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
> This is exactly the flawed analogy that incumbents use to keep anti-competitive legislation like the CFAA and extreme copyright regimes in place, but it doesn't work. These problems can all be discussed in the prism of restraining property rights for public benefit (e.g. restriction of copyright for quoting). In Uber's case, though, there is no public interest in restraining Lyft's rights. > They don't universally…
>These problems can all be discussed in the prism of restraining property rights for public benefit (e.g. restriction of copyright for quoting). In Uber's case, though, there is no public interest in restraining Lyft's rights. The public interest is in maintaining a fair and open market. You can't blind your competitors and expect to get beneficial competition. IMO we need to be much more aggressive about this and er…
Should we accept that, e.g. Lyft send some of their employees to be recruited at Uber and then leak the info back to Uber ? That's, afaik, illegal.
You must realize that, while you criticize CFAA for promoting big business, a small company will never have decent means to resist an unrestricted corporate warfare.
By creating a clear delimitation between what in your information system is public, and what is private, CFAA allows smaller companies to protect information critical to their business (not IP, private info), so that they don't have to invest in oversized devensive methods.
> the fact is that Lyft was giving this away.
Lyft was giving this away to business partners with whom they had contractual relations. Uber impersonated contractors, and violated these contractual relations.